[Denan]

(ok.. weird how ‘reply’ and ‘quote’ seem to be mixed up.. im used to it being the other way around)

I don’t think either of us said this was about Derek personally. What i wrote about CIG is the same thing i wrote after derek’s first blog, in his old forum. I’ve had the same worries and thoughts after the scope expansion and the MMO plans. What i do say however is that in my opinion the nature of the “online persona” that Derek (and some goons) created is preventing these questions from being asked- and answered.

Ask the tough questions, keep hammering on the answers.. and stay away from conjecture or photoshops. Its just the way the world works: If someone gets into a discussion with me, focusing on arguments and facts, in a well thought out manner.. i will listen. I might not agree, but i will listen and be open to arguments that might draw me to their side.

If someone stands on the other side of the street on a large soapbox continuously shouting stuff like “Don’t trust them.. They’re demons.. monsters.. they eat babies!!!!” they might pepper their nonsense with facts here and there.. but i will probably ignore them.

[Denan]

[quote quote=3089]You guys still dont understand this is not about Derek. You said it yourself you are not beeing lured by CIG : everything you are saying about CIG is what we’ve been saying for nearly a year now. Why do you care about what Derek said or not, and what did realise or not? ok he’s playing the notoriety card. Who cares? there are no dupe here ; We have been here for one reason only : CIG and the way that Derek doesnt ban/lock our comments up. Ok for obvious and biased reason but then what?we would have gone on any other places anyway where CIG have no power, if it wasn’t here in the first place. the theme is : CIG is NOT a making a game at all now. Period. The evidences are all over you are just choosing not to pay attention to it. [/quote]

I don’t think either of us said this was about Derek personally. What i wrote about CIG is the same thing i wrote after derek’s first blog, in his old forum. I’ve had the same worries and thoughts after the scope expansion and the MMO plans. What i do say however is that in my opinion the nature of the “online persona” that Derek (and some goons) created is preventing these questions from being asked- and answered.

Ask the tough questions, keep hammering on the answers.. and stay away from conjecture or photoshops. Its just the way the world works: If someone gets into a discussion with me, focusing on arguments and facts, in a well thought out manner.. i will listen. I might not agree, but i will listen and be open to arguments that might draw me to their side.

If someone stands on the other side of the street on a large soapbox continuously shouting stuff like “Don’t trust them.. They’re demons.. monsters.. they eat babies!!!!” they might pepper their nonsense with facts here and there.. but i will probably ignore them.

[Denan]

[quote quote=3083]“Do you support the current argument about Ben’s old quote archive? If so.. there’s no use talking to you.” I regard that question as being a bit flawed as I would throw back the question: What does Ben’s reprehensible old quote archive have to do with the failure of star citizen? Which has the obvious answer of nothing. Note how I never mentioned it in past posts.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with SC. And that’s the prime issue i have with everyone jumping on the bandwagon.

[quote]But ok I will bite anyway. Take a general member of the public who knows nothing about star citizen. Provide only the the info that the very public figure/customer relations person of an unnamed $112m company (just for arguments sake) wrote this (a few select quotes with admission of writing them). Question: should this person remain in that public role? A reasonable majority will say no due to not having vested interest, and will rely on their moral alignment which shows that disturbing, reprehensible shit as being intolerable for a public position. There is my opinion as well. Alternatively say the archive belonged to an elected member of a political party I hated/made fun of. Would I use it to attack the party itself? No as the typical supporters themselves would find it reprehensible. Would I expect the official to stand down? Most definitely. Of course,would there be others who attack the party as a whole as well as opposing diehards who refuse to believe/accept/whatever? Also yes. Would I attempt to intervene? No, that’s life. The analogy should be fairly clear. If you are so inclined then take your moral issues up with them, not me. However I don’t recommend it. [/quote]

CIG is a private company, any issue you have with one of their employees (or their style of management) can be resolved in a very simple manner: “don’t buy from them”. Trying to crucify someone for their past actions, demanding him to step down… come on. You can try, as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the company (or individual in question) has every right to ignore you.. or call you out for being a dick.  As long as you have no stake in said company (and no.. crowdfunding doesn’t count)  you have no right to demand actions from them. You can ask.. they ‘might’ listen.. but you have no power. You might try to sway public opinion, rally people to the cause. But that can backfire as well. The old leftish/sjw mode that most people automatically engage in is drifting to a more liberal/rightwing approach for over a decade (At least in Holland it has) . I’ve seen more and more attempts at influencing people/public opinion these past years that backfired on the people initiating them. Usually damaging them more than the people they targeted. And this goes for both public and private roles.

[quote]I suggest that your flawed question to me was a result of you eagerly attempting to take the moral high ground above both ‘sides’, as demonstrated throughout your posts (whether you realize it yourself, meh) . As an example one particularly damning line is: “Both sides playing ‘innocent’ and enlarging every small infraction like it’s some stranger beating up little kids” By probability, it is highly unlikely you do deserve to be a higher moral authority for any side or individual. Additionally as has been a running theme in my posts, even if you were such an authority the end is nigh and your complaints/concerns are pointless, valid or not. Meh, my opinion, by all means carry on. [/quote]

Let me help you with that: It’s not only highly unlikely.. it’s not the case. If i had the moral high-ground i wouldn’t be responding here. I wouldn’t be complaining about the diluting of the argument by all the white noise generated by ‘lolz’ and shitposting.. or get as annoyed as i have by the style of Derek or his handling of Ben’s old site.

And again: both sides have their valuable members.. and both sides have members who are sitting in a corner beating on their little drums trying to get attention. Slamming down harder and harder because nobody notices them.

I know i’ve said this before but i’ll say it again just to clarify: I have zero trust that SC will be able to deliver what they promised, just because they can’t even deliver descriptions of how their key mechanics will work. I want to tough questions to be asked and responded too. I just dislike people being a dick while asking or responding to those questions.. They have a right to be a dick, but i also have a right to call them out on being a dick. And the current ‘ben-ghazi’ argument.. yeah.. thats being a dick  🙂

(add: and yes.. i have been a dick in the past.. i probably am a dick right now… and i will probably be a dick in the future. But i try to be aware of the fact that i am.. and that helps.. sometimes)

[Denan]

[quote quote=3077]I did read your posts friend, all of it. It is a pity you seemingly did not read all of mine. I even had highlighted an important part just to make it simple for you in a section you did not quote. Here it is again: But it does not mean anything at this point in time. Your concerns regarding the game are irrelevant due to star citizen being FUBAR. This also means there is nothing any other party can do at this point that is counter productive as CIG has already been sabotaging themselves for years. But hey just my opinion. By all means go on blaming ‘counter productivity’ on whoever you want. Feel free to include me too for the shitizen tear harvesting i will do elsewhere as this plays out. There is a chance I could bring the whole thing down with such counter productivity! Seriously, good to hear that you only lost that much. A bad situation (in this case no game) could always be worse. [/quote]

I consider it the risk of backing a kickstarter. And yes i have a strong sense the game is beyond hope of repair. I’ve had that ever since the largely expanded scope of the kickstarter and the strange lineup of stretch goals. That’s why i supported Derek’s questions and criticism. And no, i don’t think any actions of Goons/Derek dug the hole for SC. The project management did that themselves. The counter productivity i was talking about was the diluting of the original argument by shitposting and attacks on employees/community members.

Or in other words: Do you support the current argument about Ben’s old quote archive? If so.. there’s no use talking to you. 😛

[quote quote=3076]Well, the former backers are doing it out of anger. The goons are doing it for fun DS is doing it for both + a good bonus share of free advertising. Doesn’t hurt I guess. I would be interested in what alternative way you’d propose so it’d be more productive?. And it is not asked in a sarcastic manner. [/quote]

Ah well… both SC’s advocates as the Goon’s/Derek have given me plenty of amusing moments… So i guess that’s worth something. 🙂

But in all seriousness i would prefer if the critical side would focus on asking the hard questions and pushing for answers, leaving the personal attacks out of it. And that’s on a professional note.

On a personal note i would love it if both sides “man the fuck up”. Everyone is entitled to their opinion… and everyone is entitled to post it. What i thoroughly dislike is the constant complaining.. Both sides playing ‘innocent’ and enlarging every small infraction like it’s some stranger beating up little kids. I have no objection with Derek, SC’ers or Goons behaving like asses.. i do object if people act as asses and complain that other people treat them as such.

[Denan]

[quote quote=3069]Wow, still seems some people still don’t get it. And by ‘it’ I mean how far down the toilet star citizen has gone. The latest blog is called Extinction Level Event for a very good reason. Just my speculation but perhaps those such as Denan want to believe that there is still hope for the game, simply because they don’t want to face the fact that their money has been wasted. Following that reasoning, if everyone pointing grim opinions like that out, as well as the other horrors occurring then go away, everything will be better. [/quote]

Read it.. again.. SLOWLY this time.

I share dereks concerns, he has valid points. I do not believe the game will ever see the light of day, at least not in the form i first assumed when backing it. I consider the 35$ that i spent on it ‘throwaway’ money, i spend several times that amount on a night out. So losing it is no big deal.

I do however think that some Goon’s (not all) and Derek are acting in the wrong way to get the truth out. Quite counterproductive 😛

[Denan]

[quote quote=3064] @denan You know why I’m not even addressing any of things you’re writing? Because it’s clearly as waste of my time because you can’t be serious, let alone objective. Saying stuff like “<span style=”color: #343434; font-family: Ubuntu, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.5;”>They didn’t start the war, you’ve been highly critical and negative about the project from the start.” </span><span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>is yet another example of what I’m talking about. The project started in 2012. I backed it. I wrote my first blog in July 2015. They closed my account, refunded me, then tried to lie about it, while posting statements about it on their official forum. Yeah, that’s me starting a war.</span> Nice try. [/quote]

You’ve made statements (twitter/facebook) before writing your first blog.. before even the kickstarter finished. And none of them have been positive. So yes.. i am serious.. and, besides the fact that i backed at the lowest level, i consider myself as objective as possible. Yes, i want them to succeed.. no, i’ve seen enough to highly doubt that they will ever will.

You being right doesn’t change the fact though that you’re acting like Randy’s male twin, not targeting the company and their faults, but individual employees and trying to crucify them for statements made in the past.

If you spend some time googling me i’m sure you’ll find plenty of stuff i wrote online when i was younger, some funny.. some good.. but mostly just banter between me and my friends that contains plenty of ‘inside jokes’ to be funny to me, but highly offensive to someone not involved in the inner circle. The same stuff that can be found about yourself and most other people who tend to have a large online footprint.

 

Add: just to clarify: I don’t care that you “threw the first stone”. You had valid points in your first blog and your previous behavior doesn’t disqualify those points. What i do dislike though is the feigned innocence and ‘martyrdom’. It just drags the discussion away from the key points 😛

 

[Denan]

[quote quote=3071]Hello Denan. You are absolutely missing the point. Remove DS and goons from the equation, and try again looking only at cig now. See? [/quote]

I do see.. and thats why i have my worries about the project. Read my first post and the core mechanics their missing (crating/mining/economy) or not thought out at all (what type of gameplay with cap-ships). I agree with Derek’s point of view and have from the start. I don’t agree with the route he’s taking lately, with Ben’s attempted crucifixion as the most recent example. I’ve always learned “play on the ball, not on the player”.. and he’s definitely targeting the player.

 

 

 

[Denan]

[quote quote=3059]Yeah, OK, maybe if you focused more on the fact that the issue is about Star Citizen, and less about “what Derek Smart says”, you’d be better of. And then we’d – maybe – have a meaningful discussion about the merits. Everything that a person engages in, is personal. You think I’m spending all my time and resources on this because it’s “business”? No, it’s not. You don’t have to like my methods – and I simply don’t care. This is not a crusade, nor am I looking for support. It’s a quest for truth and accountability. And simply because they, instead of acknowledging the mistakes for a project a lot of us backed, started a war with me of all people. And one they simply couldn’t win, given the facts of the matter. So, we fight. [/quote]

Perhaps you would get more respect from me if you stood for the things you’ve said in the past. They didn’t start the war, you’ve been highly critical and negative about the project from the start. And that’s a right everyone has. But saying ‘they started it!’?? Come on.. own your statements, actions and your mistakes.

And yes.. you can say “i don’t care”. But your group of followers has become smaller and smaller, your twitter feed has the same small (and shrinking) group of responders. Is that because you don’t have a valid point? Or because rational/critical SC owners / followers see everything you do/post (in twitter and SA) and just pull their hands off you because of your behavior. Both Melkor and Beer are highly critical of the project as well, but i prefer their well thought out arguments above the incoherent ramblings that your posts have degraded too these past 6 months.

I wish you’d follow your own advice.. make it about SC and not about ‘shit derek said’. And going “full SJW” on posts that some CS rep made all those years ago.. is NOT about SC.

[quote quote=3062]You would have a very good point if you did not ignore the fact that CIG and the Shitizens were aggressive and hostile to people who had legitimate questions and concerns long before the Interstellar papers came out. Derek simply fertilized and watered that seed of doubt and became th e face that was associated with “dissenters.”[/quote]

Every community has their assholes.. and seeing how large the SC community has become it’s only logical that the number of assholes is big as well. And to be honest, most of the responses are well thought out posts.. or.. they used to be. With all the shill goon/derek accounts shitposting in SC relevant threads the default response to critical points or questions has become “hi derek/goon!”.

[quote]I find it hilarious that this million dollar company (with no product) makes decisions to spite Derek and Goons. Talk about petty LOL. [/quote]

Derek states “X” will happen..

• X happens -> He wins
• X doesn’t happen -> He states they did it to spite him… and still wins

Do you see a problem with your line of reasoning?

 

[Author]

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