Star Citizen – Terms Of Service

[Nicholas Schnelting]

Hello guys,

 

Me and my friends want to ask for refund. We have not signed the new TOS and we live in europe. we can get?

thanks for response

[lir big]

They only deserve to loose their money, and moreover they’re happy to do so.

[lir big]

If you have not dowloaded/logged to the new launcher you can apply for a refund.
The CS contact last october 2015 was [email protected]
Do not log into RSI site, as I don’t know if it counts for a ToS agreement ( Thought I htink I saw on SA forums someone who claimed to be in Law stuff that you can’t make someone sign in for a change in ToS with just a loggin to account). But its safer this way

Then send a mail to the customer service saying
_ You have not signed and thus require a refund.

They may ask you for informations . Don’t give them any, they perfectly know how much you have pledged for, and the don’t need to know anything about you anyway.
If they try some bad moves such as the 14 bullshit grace time or anything shady add this :

_ referring to your bank for a chargeback option, send them the former ToS as proof.
_ 14 days grace time applies only to delivered products within the USA.
_ you’re under the European Court so :
http://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud//home_en
Also add anything relating to the anti-fraud policy in the Europe. Google for unfair contract, non delivering of goods and service/europe.

Be really really quick because they might as well be taking the tickets for their way off to a foreign country.

[Yuri Belleri]

I made my refund request two days ago (and i specified i not downloaded and agreed 2.4 launcher), this is the CIG answer

Hi Yuri,

Thank you very much for contacting us.

I am very sorry to hear that you no longer wish to back Star Citizen, however we have reviewed your account status and we regret that we are not able to accommodate your request for a refund since it was received outside of the statutory 14 day period. I understand that this may seem unwelcoming, but unfortunately we are now obligated to send over the following information as protocol:

You made your pledge to the crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for the development of “Star Citizen.” When you contributed your pledge it was applied to the building of the game and the team and resources needed to make it happen. The funds are not idly maintained in a bank account for months or years in case someone wants his/her money back. Cloud Imperium Games has been working diligently on the development of the game and has published extensive information on the development process on its website at robertsspaceindustries.com. We are very serious about accomplishing what we set out to do, which is to build a great game. We endeavor to keep everyone informed and educated on the progress of game development and what is accomplished with their support: reports, updates and web shows have been made available regularly, and our first gameplay offerings came online as early as fall of 2013. These offerings have been progressively and incrementally expanded over time to share access to the work in progress. We have created a substantial foundation for the game, and early release versions are currently available (see further detail below).

As noted above, your payment was a deposit to be used for the “Game Cost” as defined in your crowdfunding pledge agreement (see Sec. 4 of the Commercial Terms, and Sec. IV.A of the subsequent Terms of Service, as applicable, https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos), and the deposit has since been “earned by CIG and become non-refundable” since it was “used for the Game Cost…” You also agreed to “irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any deposit amount that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost ….” The only exception would be a return of unearned funds remaining in case of an abandonment of the project; this exception does not apply as we have not abandoned development. If you pledged on Kickstarter, you agreed to these terms when you transferred your pledge account to robertsspaceindustries.com.

Terms to this effect have been in the Terms of Service and/or Commercial Terms ever since Star Citizen’s crowdfunding began. They are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding and the foreseeable use of your pledge –it would not be appropriate to use current backers’ development pledges to refund an earlier pledge which has already been used for Game Cost. Put simply, “takebacks” are not in the spirit of crowdfunding, the effect would be to pull the rug out from under a team that is working hard to build what the crowd has asked them to build with their pledges.

While quite a lot of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed. This is a direct result of the community’s declared desire to have the initial release version of the game developed to a much greater depth, detail, and fidelity than contemplated originally upon start of the campaign. It is inherent to the nature of crowdfunding that such an adjustment to the project may occur. We acknowledge that some individual backers may find the additional wait undesirable. However, as per Sec. VII of the Terms, you did “acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time.” Ultimately, this evolution of development will benefit all backers including yourself, since every backer will be receiving a much greater value for his/her pledge, but it may – as in this case – cause an extension of the delivery dates.

Star Citizen is a project for gamers, by gamers. By financing the project using crowd funding, our team is not beholden to a publisher who would insist we ship a game unfinished, de-featured, or broken to meet a particular schedule. Thanks to continued backing of our community, we have the needed creative freedom over the project to push the boundaries of what is possible in gaming technology and to create a unique game with a unique approach. We feel the results such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity which have been highlighted in many reviews and community reactions, are already speaking for themselves!

Please try out, if you haven’t already, the significant gameplay which is now available (see https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list) and we encourage you to download the installer from this url: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/download to patch up and play the latest version of the game.

Again, we regret that we can’t comply with your refund request for the above reasons and sincerely hope you enjoy the updates both current and future in the Star Citizen ‘Verse.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and if there is anything else we can assist with please let us know, thanks.

For what i know and understood the new ToS cannot override local consumer protection law and for the Distance Selling Regulation actually i’m right with refund request.

[lir big]

tell them you still request a refund
_ 14 days bollox is bollox
_ you are to contact your bank and make them do a chargeback
_ send a copy of the former ToS to your bank, as well as the new one so they see for themselve the fraud attempt
_ tell them also you are filing in FTC and OLAF.
_ Contact the anti fraud police of your country
_ Keep sending them mails untill they process your refund

[SJ Parkinson]

Is anyone taking regular backups of the RSI forums? One day they are just going to disappear and a record of what went on will be necessary.

https://archive.org/web/ does a semi-decent job, but they only average a few bkps a month (3 in May, 3 in June.)

A concise, up to date record seems needed before they start running their shredders and mashing delete keys wholesale.

[dsmart]

HOW TO GET A REFUND

First, find out when you backed the project, then figure out which ToS you are subject to.

1) Request a refund. You’re going to get a response like this one. They may also ask you if something you read online, influenced your decision to get a refund. Ignore it. You don’t need a reason to ask for a refund, other than those listed below.

2) File a chargeback with your bank, PayPal etc. citing the following. Keep it simple.

“I backed this crowd-funded project on ________ and they promised to deliver the project on Nov 2014. Thus far 1) they have not delivered the product as promised, and they keep missing promised dates 2) since then they have cut some of the features that made me back the project, thus diminishing my investment 3) they are using the tech demo they released in Dec 2015 as an excuse to deny refunds, claiming that it is a substantial part of the delivery when it isn’t 4) over 90% of the features promised have yet to be delivered as of today’s date 5)  also, there are numerous reports all over the Internet that this is looking like a scam and that they cannot deliver the product as promised”

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

1. File a complaint with the CA Dept of Consumer and Business Affairs
2. File a complaint with the FTC
3. File a complaint with your State Attorney General’s office
4. File a complaint with your State BBB

Additional resources: Chargeback and refunds

HOW TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH THE CA DCBA

File a complaint. In the event that they keep rejecting your refund, you can contact the investigator directly via email ([email protected]) or phone (312-881-7094). This is the State where the head office is located; so it is critical that you report them to this agency.

HOW TO REPORT A PRODUCT TO THE FTC

First, read the FTC bulletin, Getting Your Money Back

If you feel that you have been misled when you backed the Star Citizen project after Oct, 2012, and you want a chance to get your money back, the FTC has setup a special department that deals with crowd-funding complaints. You can fill out this form. Then select “Internet services, online shopping, or computers” then “Online shopping”. You can read more about that over here.

Cloud Imperium, LLC
12322 Exposition Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
http://robertsspaceindustries.com
[email protected]
Tel: 310-275-1300

All Robert Space Industries / Cloud Imperium Games offices.

You can also use this as your summary. Edit as-needed:

“Cloud Imperium Games has collected in excess of $XXX million in crowd-funding money by selling game related items of varying value from $10 all the way up to to $15,000.

The game was promised to be delivered in Nov of 2014. However, thus far, only about 10% of the content they promised and received money for, have been delivered. Also, they have since vastly increased the scope of the project from what was previously promised; and they have gone on the record admitting to this.

They also changed the original Terms Of Service which would have required them to provide full refunds and financial accounting for the project if they failed to deliver by the promised Nov 2014 date. This change extended the term from Dec 2015 to May 2016.

They continue to raise money for the project despite never having met a single promised milestone.

After previously removing some features promised and which most backers were in favor of when they backed the project, they continue to remove features from the project, just reducing the value of the project. As recently as January 2016, they removed a key module, Star Marine, which was heavily promoted from the start of the project in 2012.

Like a lot of other customers,  when I requested a refund, they denied it. They claim that a recent 2.0 tech demo which they released in a buggy and incomplete fashion in Dec 2015 (exactly when the original accountability term in the ToS was to be in effect), constitutes a substantial release of the promised game. Given how much is missing from it, that claim is patently false and they are using it as an excuse to actively deny refunds. This despite the fact that they promised two games; Star Citizen and Squadron 42. And as of now, we haven’t received any part of the second game.

And in a typical fashion, Squadron 42, which was part of the project, has recently been split and now being sold separately to the general public.”

Note that even if you are not a backer of this project, make no mistake, you have every right to call into question anything you suspect is tantamount to consumer fraud of any kind. That’s why there are numerous resources online for specifically that purpose. And you don’t have to be a backer or whistle-blower to do it. The FTC goes after companies all the time. Here is an entire public listing of their efforts and remedies.

Direct from the FTC:

The Commission files a complaint when it has “reason to believe” that the law has been or is being violated and it appears to the Commission that a proceeding is in the public interest. Stipulated orders have the force of law when approved and signed by the District Court judge.

The Federal Trade Commission works for consumers to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices and to provide information to help spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint in English or Spanish, visit the FTC’s online Complaint Assistant or call 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357). The FTC enters complaints into Consumer Sentinel, a secure, online database available to more than 2,000 civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad. The FTC’s website provides free information on a variety of consumer topics.

Also, the Consumer Legal Remedies Act (CLRA) is a California statute that seeks to protect consumers against unfair and deceptive business practices. It identifies various unlawful practices in the sale or lease of goods or services to a consumer, including:

1. Misrepresenting the source, certification, origin, or quality of goods and services;
2. Advertising goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised;
3. Representing that a transaction has or involves rights, remedies or obligations that it does not have or involve, or that are prohibited by law;
4. Representing that the consumer will receive a rebate, discount or other economic benefit, if the earning of the benefit is contingent on an event occurring after the transaction; or
5. Inserting an unconscionable provision in the contract.

HOW TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH YOUR STATE AG

Find out who your State AG is from this website; then contact them. If you live in one of the States (e.g. Washington State) where AGs have gone after shady crowd-funding schemes, then you’re in luck. These past months, we’ve contacted AGs in various States (based on people who reached out to us for help), and apprised them of the on-going Star Citizen situation. So hopefully you don’t have to spend too much time explaining it to them. Remember, the State and Feds take their time; so don’t be surprised if it takes awhile for them to do anything.

16-06-01 UPDATE: On June 1st 2016, two key conditions in the agreed upon ToS v1.2 were triggered.

1. The first would be a refund for failure to deliver the promised product within 18 months of the promised date (Nov 2014 for those on Kickstarter, for any other backers, it would be from the day you backed the project and agreed to the ToS).
2. The second, having failed to deliver the product, is financial accountability for how the money was spent.

Depending on what you are after, you have to decide what you want, and what remedies are available to you. Here are some suggestions:

1. Request a refund – in full. Cite the two trigger sections of the ToS in your request as a reason for the request. Save all correspondences.
2. If they refuse i) file a complaint with Kickstarter (you can also post here) if you backed through there; also read section 4 of their FAQ ii) file a complaint with your State’s BBB iii) file a complaint with your State Attorney General’s office iv) file a complaint with the FTC
3. Depending on the amount, and the law in your State, you can file a case in small claims court. If you prevail, they are responsible for your court costs. There is a very good chance that they won’t appear.
4. Contact an attorney, explain the circumstances to them. Given the amount of money involved, there are some (I know a few) who would take the matter on a contingency fee basis, depending on the amount you backed. Especially if they have a shot (which they most certainly do) at a class action suit. This shouldn’t be taken lightly, and there is no point in wasting time and money on attorneys if you backed only a small amount of money. But if you must, I recommend MorrisonLee. They are one of the best “gaming” attorneys around, with attorney contacts in various States. Email them; and tell them I sent you. They are already fully aware and apprised of the on-going Star Citizen saga.

These suggestions are for US based backers only. The EU has even more stringent rules for stuff like this, so check with your country’s authorities and explore all avenues.

If you don’t want a refund, then you don’t have to do anything. In which case, it’s better to consider the money lost because the game – as promised – can never be made. Basically, intentional or not, you’ve been scammed.

Good luck.

ps. If you get a response like this from their CS, disregard (but save it!) it.

[Ranger Man]

I’ve been refused refund and accounting twice so I’ve.

File with BBB – got stock response from CIG.  Told BBB that was not acceptable, complaint is not satisfactorily resolved.

Filed with FTC – twice, once for refund refusal, second for change on TOS as I feel they may be illegal.  No answer yet but I don’t expect one for a long time.

Filed tonight with my state’s Department of Consumer affairs.

Sent email to the law firm recommended by Derek – Morrison/Lee but haven’t heard back.

I’m assuming I’ve lost my money but I’ll file with every agency just to add to the number of complaints.  The agencies will take notice if they have a larger number of complaints and a surge in the number.  I can’t afford to hire an attorney but maybe if Morrison/Lee get enough contacts they’ll be able to do something.

 

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