Star Citizen – TOS

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  • #1479
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    UPDATE 16/06/10: And it came to pass that the new June 2016 ToS has been released with the latest 2.4 “patch” going live.

    Here is a handy comparison between the previous Feb 2015 v1.2 and this latest June 2016 version.

    I am working on a blog; but the highlights and implications of this new ToS are:

    1. They can deliver anything (e.g. Minimum Viable Product as I wrote in this blog) they like, and it doesn’t have to resemble anything promised and which you backed. Which means that everything you see here in the stretch goals – and which you backed – is now meaningless. Those concept ships which have yet to be modeled, let alone flight ready? They don’t have to create them
    2. They are under no obligation to deliver anything – like ever
    3. You are not entitled to refunds – for any reason – like ever
    4. They can ban your account – for any reason – delete it, and not refund you
    5. If you buy an account and they find out, they can terminate the account and not refund you. This is essentially to kill the Grey market (Star Citizen trades has now been removed from the Reddit subs), prevent people from buying accounts and/or holding CIG accountable etc
    6. The disparaging CS tagging (1, 2) that occurred just this week, gives rise to how they were seeking to identify backers outside of their website/services, in order to identify their accounts and terminate them – without cause (other than because you were a dissenter)
    7. They no longer owe backers any financial accountability for where the money went. This was one of the key points they used as a carrot during this funding. That, and the ability to do refunds. Both have now been removed.
    8. There is no release date for anything. The 18 month (which was previous 12 months in prior ToS revisions) time frame to deliver following the original Nov 2014 date, has been removed
    9. The new ToS is an agreement with RSI and not CIG as before. Considering that they have a bunch of corporated entities associated with this, the implications of this change are not yet clear to me. UPDATE: After speaking with my attorneys, we view this move as an attempt to shift liability (lawsuits, creditors, investors etc) from CIG, and to the subsidiary (RSI). This is a common tactic used when businesses are setup. In fact, it clearly explains all these entities associated with this project. So when this project collapses – as I am certain that it will, seeing as they can’t deliver it as promised – CIG (which is the parent) will be shielded from the lawsuits and liabilites of RSI. However, according to the law, in cases where fraud is uncovered, there is no such protection.
    10. They say you agree not to sue them – like ever

    In the meantime, if you ever want legal recourse, do NOT download the 2.4 patch and do NOT do ANYTHING on their site and/or services in which you are required to agree to this new ToS. The only way you are able to give expressed consent, is if you download the 2.4 game launcher and press the AGREE button. Visiting the website, sending them emails, opening support tickets etc do not convey consent.

    TO BE CLEAR: This new ToS only applies to i) new backers from this date forward who download the game and agree to the new ToS ii) existing backers who are presented (e.g. in the game launcher) with the new ToS, and which they have to agree to

    Since July 2015, I have been making a lot of noise about the ToS (which they have changed many times to suit their actions) and the fact that RSI/CIG are required to provide refunds and financial accountability to backers for failure to deliver the promised game, 18 months from the expiration Feb 2015 ToS v1.2. Those two clauses triggered on May 31st, 2016. And instead of abiding by them, they decided to create a new ToS which not only removes those clauses, but it also strips even more rights from backers who have thus far given them $115 million. A lot of Shitizens said I was wrong about the ToS interpretation, that I didn’t understand it, blah, blah, blah. Yet, with the latest 2.4 patch disaster hurriedly pushed to live (conveniently ahead of E3 which they recently backed out of attending), they have done precisely as I said and expected that they would.

    This is CIG. There’s always more; and it’s always worse.


    UPDATE 16/05/24: Sources are telling me that a new ToS revision is in the works and will be shoved through either in the upcoming public release of 2.4 or thereafter. If you ever hope to get financial accountability or refunds – two of the key provisions of the current ToS v1.2 – do not agree to it. On June 1st, backers have the legal right to both a refund and financial accountability as promised.

    Make no mistake, several things are in the works, and there are going to be legal ramifications – including the complete decimation of the arbitration clause introduced in ToS 1.1 by people who never agreed to that ToS revision.


    Everyone knows by now that since the shoddy and premature release of Star Citizen (aka Persistent Universe) v2.0 in Dec 2015, they’re now claiming that it is substantial update, so they’re refusing refunds.

    Below are all the different ToS revisions since the start of this project. The Kickstarter ToS would be active from 12-10-18 to 12-11-19 when the campaign started and ended there.

    12-09-13 // Original version from RSI website before they moved the campaign to Kickstarter. No arbitration clause.

    13-08-13 // v1.0, No arbitration clause. 

    13-08-29 // v1.1, Arbitration clause appears in VIII

    15-02-01 // v1.2, Arbitration clause appears in XXII

    NOTE: If you pledged on Kickstarter, then you are subject to their ToS, as well as the RSI ToS which was active after the campaign ended and you had to access their site to create your citizen account.

    According to their  ToS v1.1 of 08/29/13 they said if they failed to deliver within 12 months of Nov 2014 (the original Kickstarter estimated delivery date), they would issue refunds. At the time, this non-delivery period would kick in during Nov 2015.

    IV. Charges & Billing
    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.

    Since that time, having already i) missed the Nov 2014 delivery date and ii) embarked on the increased scope (aka “vision 2.0”), thus extending the delivery date for the project, they surreptitiously made another changed in ToS v1.2 of 02/01/15 (which remains the current one on their website). The previous section was moved; and now reads:

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges
    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date communicated to you on the Website.  However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you within eighteen (18) months after the estimated delivery date.

    And in the current ToS, here is a key section that ties into the above:

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges
    For the avoidance of doubt, in consideration of RSI’s good faith efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Game with the funds raised, you agree that any Pledge amounts applied against the Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not RSI is able to complete and deliver the Game and/or the pledge items. In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost. In consideration of the promises by RSI hereunder, you agree that you shall irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any Pledge that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost in accordance with the above.

    The trigger in ToS v1.2 which will require (they won’t do it voluntarily) them to provide refunds and a full accounting, will expire 18 months from when they promised the project to be delivered on Nov 2014. It was set to expire in Nov 2015 as per the previous ToS. Then they extended it from 12 to 18 months. So the new expiration date is May 31, 2016 depending on when you backed the game and agreed to the ToS.

    However, it doesn’t matter when you backed the project; as long as you accessed their services (game, forum) and agreed to the ToS v1.2 revision when presented, you are subject to it. All previous versions would then be null and void. However, if you NEVER accessed their systems, and thus never agreed to ToS v1.2, then you are not only due a refund, but also due a full accounting as per the previous ToS versions.

    When it comes to dates…

    In the case of Kickstarter, it means the Nov 2014 date posted in the campaign.

    In the case of the original 2012 CIG website, it means the same as above.

    In the case of the CIG website, it means the dates such as this

    In this video interview from 2012 around the 8:50 mark, he again states that the game was two years out

    [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGE0_WSHGHc[/youtube]

    Gary Whitta:

    Chris thanks for joining us and seriously, congratulations on this tremendously successful funding effort, but I guess really now this is just the beginning of the actual difficult part which is building the game, when are we actually gonna see this thing?

    Chris Roberts:

    Ehh, well the… the… the FULL FINAL GAME will be approximately TWO YEARS from now but ahm, one of the advantages and I think the same is true on David’s Elite if… if you BACK IT EARLY, you know, besides being part of the COMMUNITY and the DISCUSSION, ah, and… and having your voice heard and seeing sort of what’s happening in the background so, you know I… we’re going to ah… you know, instead… we don’t have a PUBLISHER but you know what, we’re gonna TREAT OUR BACKERS the same way we would a PUBLISHER so when we get to a MILESTONE we’re gonna give them a SHOW AND TELL and all the STUFF and personally I’d rather do that to them than a publisher because I’m showing it to a hundred thousand people that really care about this and get EXCITED by it and so that’s kinda cool, but the other thing that you’ll be able to do is PLAY, ah, sort of the EARLY BUILDS and the way I’m… the way I’m sort of STRUCTURING is I’m trying to, ah… test out components of this overall bigger UNIVERSE along the way so I don’t just drop everything all at once so in TWELVE MONTHS TIME you’ll be able to play the SINGLE PLAYER… ah I mean sorry, sorry… the MULTIPLAYER DOGFIGHTING ALPHA which won’t be the full PERSISTENT UNIVERSE and it won’t be the single player game, but it WILL BE basically all the ships that you’ve PLEDGED FOR, think of it more like WORLD OF TANKS… and we’re gonna use that to ah… BALANCE THE COMBAT, uhm… you know, FINE TUNE it with the help of the community, and ah… try and see you know, exactly STRESS TEST how many people we can get in an instance at any one time and then, ah, you know… about SIX TO TEN MONTHS after that we’ll do a sort of BETA of the SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN which is SQUADRON 42 and then finally the FULL PERSISTENT UNIVERSE BETA to sort of ah, you know… gonna be about TWENTY MONTHS OR SO AFTER NOW and the LIVE RELEASE SHOULD BE ABOUT TWENTY FOUR MONTHS… but of course you know, there… it… there may be plus or minus a month here… well not minus… plus a month or so, on that… on the bigger thing at the end… but I’m PRETTY CONFIDENT about the DOGFIGHTING ALPHA IN TWELVE MONTHS

    SUMMARY:

    Hangar module <— released Aug 29th, 2013

    Dogfighting (aka Arena Commander) module Dec 2013 <— alpha released June 4, 2014

    Star Marine (full blown FPS module) <— canceled

    Social/Planetside module <— alpha released Aug 30th, 2015

    Persistent Universe Beta by August 2014 <— alpha released Dec 11, 2015 with 1 star system & 1 planet – which you can’t fly to

    Squadron 42 <— no show

    Full Final Game live release by Dec 2014 <— now 18th months past due, and with barely 10% of the promised features implemented

Viewing 32 replies - 1 through 32 (of 91 total)
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  • #3796
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    HOW TO GET A REFUND

    First, find out when you backed the project, then figure out which ToS you are subject to.

    1) Request a refund. You’re going to get a response like this one. They may also ask you if something you read online, influenced your decision to get a refund. Ignore it. You don’t need a reason to ask for a refund, other than those listed below.

    2) File a chargeback with your bank, PayPal etc. citing the following. Keep it simple.

    “I backed this crowd-funded project on ________ and they promised to deliver the project on Nov 2014. Thus far 1) they have not delivered the product as promised, and they keep missing promised dates 2) since then they have cut some of the features that made me back the project, thus diminishing my investment 3) they are using the tech demo they released in Dec 2015 as an excuse to deny refunds, claiming that it is a substantial part of the delivery when it isn’t 4) over 90% of the features promised have yet to be delivered as of today’s date 5)  also, there are numerous reports all over the Internet that this is looking like a scam and that they cannot deliver the product as promised”

    WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

    1. File a complaint with the CA Dept of Consumer and Business Affairs
    2. File a complaint with the FTC
    3. File a complaint with your State Attorney General’s office
    4. File a complaint with your State BBB

    Additional resources: Chargeback and refunds

    HOW TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH THE CA DCBA

    File a complaint. In the event that they keep rejecting your refund, you can contact the investigator directly via email ([email protected]) or phone (312-881-7094). This is the State where the head office is located; so it is critical that you report them to this agency.

    HOW TO REPORT A PRODUCT TO THE FTC

    First, read the FTC bulletin, Getting Your Money Back

    If you feel that you have been misled when you backed the Star Citizen project after Oct, 2012, and you want a chance to get your money back, the FTC has setup a special department that deals with crowd-funding complaints. You can fill out this form. Then select “Internet services, online shopping, or computers” then “Online shopping”. You can read more about that over here.

    Cloud Imperium, LLC
    12322 Exposition Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    http://robertsspaceindustries.com
    [email protected]
    Tel: 310-275-1300

    All Robert Space Industries / Cloud Imperium Games offices.

    You can also use this as your summary. Edit as-needed:

    “Cloud Imperium Games has collected in excess of $XXX million in crowd-funding money by selling game related items of varying value from $10 all the way up to to $15,000.

    The game was promised to be delivered in Nov of 2014. However, thus far, only about 10% of the content they promised and received money for, have been delivered. Also, they have since vastly increased the scope of the project from what was previously promised; and they have gone on the record admitting to this.

    They also changed the original Terms Of Service which would have required them to provide full refunds and financial accounting for the project if they failed to deliver by the promised Nov 2014 date. This change extended the term from Dec 2015 to May 2016.

    They continue to raise money for the project despite never having met a single promised milestone.

    After previously removing some features promised and which most backers were in favor of when they backed the project, they continue to remove features from the project, just reducing the value of the project. As recently as January 2016, they removed a key module, Star Marine, which was heavily promoted from the start of the project in 2012.

    Like a lot of other customers,  when I requested a refund, they denied it. They claim that a recent 2.0 tech demo which they released in a buggy and incomplete fashion in Dec 2015 (exactly when the original accountability term in the ToS was to be in effect), constitutes a substantial release of the promised game. Given how much is missing from it, that claim is patently false and they are using it as an excuse to actively deny refunds. This despite the fact that they promised two games; Star Citizen and Squadron 42. And as of now, we haven’t received any part of the second game.

    And in a typical fashion, Squadron 42, which was part of the project, has recently been split and now being sold separately to the general public.”

    Note that even if you are not a backer of this project, make no mistake, you have every right to call into question anything you suspect is tantamount to consumer fraud of any kind. That’s why there are numerous resources online for specifically that purpose. And you don’t have to be a backer or whistle-blower to do it. The FTC goes after companies all the time. Here is an entire public listing of their efforts and remedies.

    Direct from the FTC:

    The Commission files a complaint when it has “reason to believe” that the law has been or is being violated and it appears to the Commission that a proceeding is in the public interest. Stipulated orders have the force of law when approved and signed by the District Court judge.

    The Federal Trade Commission works for consumers to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices and to provide information to help spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint in English or Spanish, visit the FTC’s online Complaint Assistant or call 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357). The FTC enters complaints into Consumer Sentinel, a secure, online database available to more than 2,000 civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad. The FTC’s website provides free information on a variety of consumer topics.

    Also, the Consumer Legal Remedies Act (CLRA) is a California statute that seeks to protect consumers against unfair and deceptive business practices. It identifies various unlawful practices in the sale or lease of goods or services to a consumer, including:

    1. Misrepresenting the source, certification, origin, or quality of goods and services;
    2. Advertising goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised;
    3. Representing that a transaction has or involves rights, remedies or obligations that it does not have or involve, or that are prohibited by law;
    4. Representing that the consumer will receive a rebate, discount or other economic benefit, if the earning of the benefit is contingent on an event occurring after the transaction; or
    5. Inserting an unconscionable provision in the contract.

    HOW TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH YOUR STATE AG

    Find out who your State AG is from this website; then contact them. If you live in one of the States (e.g. Washington State) where AGs have gone after shady crowd-funding schemes, then you’re in luck. These past months, we’ve contacted AGs in various States (based on people who reached out to us for help), and apprised them of the on-going Star Citizen situation. So hopefully you don’t have to spend too much time explaining it to them. Remember, the State and Feds take their time; so don’t be surprised if it takes awhile for them to do anything.

    16-06-01 UPDATE: On June 1st 2016, two key conditions in the agreed upon ToS v1.2 were triggered.

    1. The first would be a refund for failure to deliver the promised product within 18 months of the promised date (Nov 2014 for those on Kickstarter, for any other backers, it would be from the day you backed the project and agreed to the ToS).
    2. The second, having failed to deliver the product, is financial accountability for how the money was spent.

    Depending on what you are after, you have to decide what you want, and what remedies are available to you. Here are some suggestions:

    1. Request a refund – in full. Cite the two trigger sections of the ToS in your request as a reason for the request. Save all correspondences.
    2. If they refuse i) file a complaint with Kickstarter (you can also post here) if you backed through there; also read section 4 of their FAQ ii) file a complaint with your State’s BBB iii) file a complaint with your State Attorney General’s office iv) file a complaint with the FTC
    3. Depending on the amount, and the law in your State, you can file a case in small claims court. If you prevail, they are responsible for your court costs. There is a very good chance that they won’t appear.
    4. Contact an attorney, explain the circumstances to them. Given the amount of money involved, there are some (I know a few) who would take the matter on a contingency fee basis, depending on the amount you backed. Especially if they have a shot (which they most certainly do) at a class action suit. This shouldn’t be taken lightly, and there is no point in wasting time and money on attorneys if you backed only a small amount of money. But if you must, I recommend MorrisonLee. They are one of the best “gaming” attorneys around, with attorney contacts in various States. Email them; and tell them I sent you. They are already fully aware and apprised of the on-going Star Citizen saga.

    These suggestions are for US based backers only. The EU has even more stringent rules for stuff like this, so check with your country’s authorities and explore all avenues.

    If you don’t want a refund, then you don’t have to do anything. In which case, it’s better to consider the money lost because the game – as promised – can never be made. Basically, intentional or not, you’ve been scammed.

    Good luck.

    ps. If you get a response like this from their CS, disregard (but save it!) it.

    #4059
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    So following the new ToS update, according to this poster, they now have a form letter that CS sends out to people inquiring about, or requesting a refund:

    Thank you very much for contacting us.

    I am very sorry to hear that you no longer wish to back Star Citizen, however we have reviewed your account status and we regret that we are not able to accommodate your request for a refund since it was received outside of the statutory 14 day period. I understand that this may seem unwelcoming, but unfortunately we are now obligated to send over the following information as protocol:

    You made your pledge to the crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for the development of “Star Citizen.” When you contributed your pledge it was applied to the building of the game and the team and resources needed to make it happen. The funds are not idly maintained in a bank account for months or years in case someone wants his/her money back. Cloud Imperium Games has been working diligently on the development of the game and has published extensive information on the development process on its website at robertsspaceindustries.com. We are very serious about accomplishing what we set out to do, which is to build a great game. We endeavor to keep everyone informed and educated on the progress of game development and what is accomplished with their support: reports, updates and web shows have been made available regularly, and our first gameplay offerings came online as early as fall of 2013. These offerings have been progressively and incrementally expanded over time to share access to the work in progress. We have created a substantial foundation for the game, and early release versions are currently available (see further detail below).

    As noted above, your payment was a deposit to be used for the “Game Cost” as defined in your crowdfunding pledge agreement (see Sec. 4 of the Commercial Terms, and Sec. IV.A of the subsequent Terms of Service, as applicable,https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos), and the deposit has since been “earned by CIG and become non-refundable” since it was “used for the Game Cost…” You also agreed to “irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any deposit amount that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost ….” The only exception would be a return of unearned funds remaining in case of an abandonment of the project; this exception does not apply as we have not abandoned development. If you pledged on Kickstarter, you agreed to these terms when you transferred your pledge account to robertsspaceindustries.com.

    Terms to this effect have been in the Terms of Service and/or Commercial Terms ever since Star Citizen’s crowdfunding began. They are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding and the foreseeable use of your pledge –it would not be appropriate to use current backers’ development pledges to refund an earlier pledge which has already been used for Game Cost. Put simply, “takebacks” are not in the spirit of crowdfunding, the effect would be to pull the rug out from under a team that is working hard to build what the crowd has asked them to build with their pledges.

    While quite a lot of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed. This is a direct result of the community’s declared desire to have the initial release version of the game developed to a much greater depth, detail, and fidelity than contemplated originally upon start of the campaign. It is inherent to the nature of crowdfunding that such an adjustment to the project may occur. We acknowledge that some individual backers may find the additional wait undesirable. However, as per Sec. VII of the Terms, you did “acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time.” Ultimately, this evolution of development will benefit all backers including yourself, since every backer will be receiving a much greater value for his/her pledge, but it may – as in this case – cause an extension of the delivery dates.

    Star Citizen is a project for gamers, by gamers. By financing the project using crowd funding, our team is not beholden to a publisher who would insist we ship a game unfinished, de-featured, or broken to meet a particular schedule. Thanks to continued backing of our community, we have the needed creative freedom over the project to push the boundaries of what is possible in gaming technology and to create a unique game with a unique approach. We feel the results such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity which have been highlighted in many reviews and community reactions, are already speaking for themselves!

    Please try out, if you haven’t already, the significant gameplay which is now available (seehttps://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list) and we encourage you to download the installer from this url:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/download to patch up and play the latest version of the game.

    Again, we regret that we can’t comply with your refund request for the above reasons and sincerely hope you enjoy the updates both current and future in the Star Citizen ‘Verse.

    Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and if there is anything else we can assist with please let us know, thanks.

    #3947
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    Again, kind of lets them off the hook but then one of them is a backer who is “happy” and what about the we may never ever deliver a product part of the TOS.  They mention it and the missed deadlines, not delivering what was sold to us but really it all seems like it’s okay to them.  Waste of electrons to make that footage.

    The gaming media is worse then today’s media like CNN, etc.  None of them will rock the boat and point out when their favorites screw up.  One reason I never go to a gaming media site to find out about a game.

     

    #3944
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    #3841
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    So today, Kotaku wrote this article: Star Citizen Changes Terms of Service to Make it More Difficult to Get a Refund

    The article completely ignores the more serious issue: that being the one related to, you know the REMOVAL of two key (refunds, financial accountability) provisions which backers previously had.

    This issue is not just about the ability to get refunds going forward. It’s a LOT worse than that.

    This is why most of the gaming media get under fire a lot and gamers have completely lost trust in most of them. These people were part of the massive hype train, writing puff pieces etc. Yet, once the wheels started to come off, gamers being fleeced like sheep, they’re all strangely silent.

    Even with something as serious as a MATERIAL CHANGE in a ToS that was used to build and fuel said hype train, it’s pretty much like “yeah, whatever”.

    I feel the key issue here is that nobody wants to be the first to admit that I was **right** this whole time. I mean, at the end of the day, it all boils down to “Smart v Roberts“. And most people simply can’t reconcile that.That’s on them. Just wait when the inevitable collapse comes.

    This is an article by PC Powerplay  The Star Citizen honeymoon is over Opinion: Derek Smart is probably right.

    So, I’m probably right. But let’s carry on and ramble about how this is about (hint: you’re a fool, it’s not) Line Of Defense

    Not to mention the fact that the author has $1800 in the project. Star Citizen and the fleet of folly

    #3825
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Like I said, morons. Posting on the website does not convey any agreement to the new ToS. That’s why you only see it on the game launcher/downloader and where you then have to agree or disagree.

    #3824
    SJ Parkinson
    SJ Parkinson
    Participant

    When Obi Wan Kenobi said, “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany.” he was wrong.

    Just go to the CIG forums and be amazed at the intolerance, ignorance and inanity.

    The only nugget that everyone missed, “On a secondary note, to the people who posted that they will not be agreeing to the new TOS, I’m sorry to tell you but posting that very line on these forums and thus using the services provided by CIG, you have already agreed to the new TOS.”

    #3819
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Yeah – he’s a moron. The Kickstarter ToS, has nothing to do with the CIG/RSI ToS. And it does apply to everyone; regardless of where you backed the game. As long as you downloaded the game, you had to have agreed to a ToS on CIG/RSI website.

    #3818
    Hotsauce ShoTYME
    Hotsauce ShoTYME
    Participant

    From that thread.

    “No, you’re misunderstanding. The 18 months after November 2014 ONLY applies to kickstarter backers. The reason it doesn’t apply to anyone else is because no expected released date has ever been announced by CIG on their website anywhere. So there is no “18 months after…”

    #3817
    Steven Cooper
    letitfail
    Participant

    That article..holy shit.

    “trolling” Ah, I see it was written mid 2013, when saying SC wouldn’t be commercially released Nov 2014 – early 2015 was trolling.

    “refrain from continually posting about games you don’t like!” Sure, nobody ever said ‘nobody warned me!’

    “Obviously anyone with half a brain can see that it’s a hardcore space sim” + “bleeding edge aesthetics” Press USE and buy underpants. You will need them when the space suit doesn’t render.

    “trolls … about Star Citizen’s pre-order ship offerings” Those damn trolls again. How can buying jpegs go wrong?

    “upper middle class adults with stable income and significant reserves” + “This is money that exists in a household budget purely for whimsical purchases.”  Sure. Those steam reviews where people lose their shit over games worth less then $10 are figments of my imagination.

    “money well spent” I guess so, but unlike Chris I think Capri is overrated. Monaco is fun though.

    #3816
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    This, https://t.co/E34XpX8vvw (the @engadget link you posted) makes your case.  I had not heard of engadget before but I haven’t missed anything if this is the level of their posts.

    #3815
    Hotsauce ShoTYME
    Hotsauce ShoTYME
    Participant

    He is exactly right. Companies change their TOS all the time for a game that is already out and expectations are already level set and if you go into the game and find that is not the case you can get a refund.  That is not the case here cause the game is not out and we have no way of measuring expectations vs reality.  Well we do but there is that nagging pre-alpha out.  I am not sure why the spergs keep comparing the TOS of gold games to a tech demo.

    #3814
    Randy Henderson
    Randy Henderson
    Participant

    Will it strictly be for US residents? I’m in Canada but would seriously be interested as well.

    #3813
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    I guess it’s what happens when people do things and the checks and balances of common sense are turned off.

    It’s beyond being fans of a game.  Most of us have games we really like and am recommend to others (sometimes to much so <G>) but most of us are willing to say it’s good but there are these things I don’t like and accept that.  We like it, we play it, we recommend it and if someone else isn’t as excited about the game as we are so be it.  SC  is truly a cult by any definition of a cult.  No questioning  of the leader tolerated at all and if you do you are severely punished, shunned, or worse.  No even thinking that we and our beliefs are not perfect.  And as for being wrong. We are the right way!  If we do it it’s right!

    Most people have boundaries that tell them when things aren’t right whether it’s a get rich quick scheme someone is peddling or some other scam and they listen and move on or if they are interested they keep their investment and potential losses low and when the boundaries are crossed and the alarms go off they cut and run.  I think those left in the SC ‘verse are those without the checks and balances and boundaries.

    We are making the mistake of looking at it logically and thinking about it.  Taking the facts, what’s going on, and arriving at a sound conclusion.  Can’t do that in the SC ‘verse.

    #3812
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Seriously, it’s astonishing to me. Seriously, read this crap. Most of these folks are ignorant, clueless and/or are Shillizens. Nothing else explains this level of cognitive dissonance and/or denial.

    Companies change their ToS all the time and never tell anyone. This isn’t news. This isn’t unusual. This isn’t interesting unless you want to peddle FUD.

    I mean, did he even read the ToS? What about all the posts online which show the glaring differences between the previous and current versions; and which clearly show that CIG/RSI took away two key components they had used as carrot sticks to gain backer confidence, and thus funding. My guess, yes, they have seen/read it, but like everything else, they’re in complete denial or just continuing to deny that CIG/RSI could do anything wrong. That’s how a cult operates. Completely.

    #3809
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    Just when I think I can’t be amazed at stupidity you post something from the RSI forums. Cultist – “Just prove what is different in this TOS then the last!”.  Duh, can you read??? It’s no different than what happens with Ponzi schemes, the mail fraud (send letter, get much money as part of our business) where people want to something for little or nothing.  They buy in and delude themselves.  Instead of seeing the plain facts they keep drinking the koolaid.

     

    #3808
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    I can’t seem to be able to log onto the forum with a free created account. I was using a gifted aurora account from a friend untill january when I got it banned lol. So i can’t troll anymore there.

    #3807
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Interesting that normally gamers won’t be making a big deal about a game’s ToS. I made noise. So now they pay attention. And we’re 17 pages into a discussion that some were claiming is no big deal. Go figure.

    Go make your voices heard because ignorance and exclusion are no excuse if you’re seeking accountability.

    #3804
    Cliff Walton
    Cliff Walton
    Participant

    OK, refund request filed, denial is in the works, where do I sign next?

    #3803
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    Sounds good.  I have been denied refund, have not agreed to new TOS terms and have my emails.  My state’s Dept of Consumer called and will file a complaint but that’s 35-40 day process by the time we hear back.  Thanks for doing this.

    Standing by, Commandos.

     

    #3801
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    All of you just need to hang on to your email correspondence, don’t download the 2.4 launcher, thus agreeing to the new ToS. We’re working on something legal which I will announce soon and which will require participation by US residents who i) want a refund, and were denied ii) didn’t agree to the new June 2016 ToS.

     

    #3799
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    I’ve been refused refund and accounting twice so I’ve.

    File with BBB – got stock response from CIG.  Told BBB that was not acceptable, complaint is not satisfactorily resolved.

    Filed with FTC – twice, once for refund refusal, second for change on TOS as I feel they may be illegal.  No answer yet but I don’t expect one for a long time.

    Filed tonight with my state’s Department of Consumer affairs.

    Sent email to the law firm recommended by Derek – Morrison/Lee but haven’t heard back.

    I’m assuming I’ve lost my money but I’ll file with every agency just to add to the number of complaints.  The agencies will take notice if they have a larger number of complaints and a surge in the number.  I can’t afford to hire an attorney but maybe if Morrison/Lee get enough contacts they’ll be able to do something.

     

    #2778
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster
    #3761
    SJ Parkinson
    SJ Parkinson
    Participant

    Is anyone taking regular backups of the RSI forums? One day they are just going to disappear and a record of what went on will be necessary.

    https://archive.org/web/ does a semi-decent job, but they only average a few bkps a month (3 in May, 3 in June.)

    A concise, up to date record seems needed before they start running their shredders and mashing delete keys wholesale.

    #3756
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    tell them you still request a refund
    _ 14 days bollox is bollox
    _ you are to contact your bank and make them do a chargeback
    _ send a copy of the former ToS to your bank, as well as the new one so they see for themselve the fraud attempt
    _ tell them also you are filing in FTC and OLAF.
    _ Contact the anti fraud police of your country
    _ Keep sending them mails untill they process your refund

    #3755
    Yuri Belleri
    Yuri Belleri
    Participant

    I made my refund request two days ago (and i specified i not downloaded and agreed 2.4 launcher), this is the CIG answer

    Hi Yuri,

    Thank you very much for contacting us.

    I am very sorry to hear that you no longer wish to back Star Citizen, however we have reviewed your account status and we regret that we are not able to accommodate your request for a refund since it was received outside of the statutory 14 day period. I understand that this may seem unwelcoming, but unfortunately we are now obligated to send over the following information as protocol:

    You made your pledge to the crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for the development of “Star Citizen.” When you contributed your pledge it was applied to the building of the game and the team and resources needed to make it happen. The funds are not idly maintained in a bank account for months or years in case someone wants his/her money back. Cloud Imperium Games has been working diligently on the development of the game and has published extensive information on the development process on its website at robertsspaceindustries.com. We are very serious about accomplishing what we set out to do, which is to build a great game. We endeavor to keep everyone informed and educated on the progress of game development and what is accomplished with their support: reports, updates and web shows have been made available regularly, and our first gameplay offerings came online as early as fall of 2013. These offerings have been progressively and incrementally expanded over time to share access to the work in progress. We have created a substantial foundation for the game, and early release versions are currently available (see further detail below).

    As noted above, your payment was a deposit to be used for the “Game Cost” as defined in your crowdfunding pledge agreement (see Sec. 4 of the Commercial Terms, and Sec. IV.A of the subsequent Terms of Service, as applicable, https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos), and the deposit has since been “earned by CIG and become non-refundable” since it was “used for the Game Cost…” You also agreed to “irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any deposit amount that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost ….” The only exception would be a return of unearned funds remaining in case of an abandonment of the project; this exception does not apply as we have not abandoned development. If you pledged on Kickstarter, you agreed to these terms when you transferred your pledge account to robertsspaceindustries.com.

    Terms to this effect have been in the Terms of Service and/or Commercial Terms ever since Star Citizen’s crowdfunding began. They are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding and the foreseeable use of your pledge –it would not be appropriate to use current backers’ development pledges to refund an earlier pledge which has already been used for Game Cost. Put simply, “takebacks” are not in the spirit of crowdfunding, the effect would be to pull the rug out from under a team that is working hard to build what the crowd has asked them to build with their pledges.

    While quite a lot of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed. This is a direct result of the community’s declared desire to have the initial release version of the game developed to a much greater depth, detail, and fidelity than contemplated originally upon start of the campaign. It is inherent to the nature of crowdfunding that such an adjustment to the project may occur. We acknowledge that some individual backers may find the additional wait undesirable. However, as per Sec. VII of the Terms, you did “acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time.” Ultimately, this evolution of development will benefit all backers including yourself, since every backer will be receiving a much greater value for his/her pledge, but it may – as in this case – cause an extension of the delivery dates.

    Star Citizen is a project for gamers, by gamers. By financing the project using crowd funding, our team is not beholden to a publisher who would insist we ship a game unfinished, de-featured, or broken to meet a particular schedule. Thanks to continued backing of our community, we have the needed creative freedom over the project to push the boundaries of what is possible in gaming technology and to create a unique game with a unique approach. We feel the results such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity which have been highlighted in many reviews and community reactions, are already speaking for themselves!

    Please try out, if you haven’t already, the significant gameplay which is now available (see https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list) and we encourage you to download the installer from this url: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/download to patch up and play the latest version of the game.

    Again, we regret that we can’t comply with your refund request for the above reasons and sincerely hope you enjoy the updates both current and future in the Star Citizen ‘Verse.

    Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and if there is anything else we can assist with please let us know, thanks.

    For what i know and understood the new ToS cannot override local consumer protection law and for the Distance Selling Regulation actually i’m right with refund request.

    #3746
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    If you have not dowloaded/logged to the new launcher you can apply for a refund.
    The CS contact last october 2015 [email protected]
    Do not log into RSI site, as I don’t know if it counts for a ToS agreement ( Thought I htink I saw on SA forums someone who claimed to be in Law stuff that you can’t make someone sign in for a change in ToS with just a loggin to account). But its safer this way

    Then send a mail to the customer service saying
    _ You have not signed and thus require a refund.

    They may ask you for informations . Don’t give them any, they perfectly know how much you have pledged for, and the don’t need to know anything about you anyway.
    If they try some bad moves such as the 14 bullshit grace time or anything shady add this :

    _ referring to your bank for a chargeback option, send them the former ToS as proof.
    _ 14 days grace time applies only to delivered products within the USA.
    _ you’re under the European Court so :
    http://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud//home_en
    Also add anything relating to the anti-fraud policy in the Europe. Google for unfair contract, non delivering of goods and service/europe.

    Be really really quick because they might as well be taking the tickets for their way off to a foreign country.

    #3742
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    They only deserve to loose their money, and moreover they’re happy to do so.

    #3740

    Hello guys,

     

    Me and my friends want to ask for refund. We have not signed the new TOS and we live in europe. we can get?

    thanks for response

    #3736
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Yeah, they are right. It is in my original post (item #9) in this thread. And I also Tweeted about it yesterday as well. It’s good that people are doing their own legal research into this new ToS nonsense.

    #3734
    Martijn Otto
    Martijn Otto
    Participant

    In the comments of this video, Major Tom said this:

    “By removing CIG from the ToS entirely they remove liability from CIG (Cloud Imperium Games) and shift it to RSI (Robert Space Industries). Since Robert Space Industries is a subsidy of CIG, when (or if) the project crashes, the parent company can technically claim no liability (see https://www.invigorlaw.com/when-can…-parent-entity/ )”

    #3733
    Ranger Man
    Ranger Man
    Participant

    Interesting.  And as usual the white nights, cultists dismiss it all on reddit.  As one said “It’s CIG so I don’t care about TOS”.  How deluded.

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