Star Citizen - The E.L.E.

[the_wolfmann]

But, he did. Just not for the reasons you described. For Moeis it's "old news" because Early Access/In Dev games do this all the time. Still don't see why we should attack him for not seeing things our way. He won't. Not until it's too late anyway.

[Motto]

I'm not attacking him. I just don't have the same experiences with Early Access / In Dev and constant ToS updating. But even if that was true, still the question remains why an update from alpha 2.6.3 to alpha 3.0 would warrant an update. The progress of the game sofar doesn't need a ToS update. The game needs progress  :D

[dsmart]

In Croberts ever feckless way, he has only been seeking to indemnify himself from future liability by constant, continual, contractual negotiations with the backers via the TOS. The very people who have paid him in full, to the tune of $150 million+, for a product that meets Croberts publicly announced specifications, via kickstarter, and additional stretch goals.

Only each and every change of the SC TOS has been geared to effect his release from his many and weighty, contractually binding obligations, on this account.

Precisely. And that's why I believe it when sources tell me that they're going to roll out yet another ToS update, which I believe is again designed to reduce their liability, even as they appear to be plotting an exit strategy as per the new shell company I recently wrote about.

[dsmart]

You guys seem to think I am making an argument or a statement about the contents of a TOS, when in fact I said no such thing.
You guys are making argument responses to arguments I didn't make.

It really is not ignorant to expect another TOS change to becoming soon, when you look back at history you can come up with this expectation, really that is the exact opposite of being ignorant, that is paying attention.

All I am saying is the breaking news would have been more interesting if it contained what those changes would be.  It like being told "Breaking News: Donald Trump is going to do something stupid", yes we all know he will so that is not breaking news.

Ho Lee Cow! No! This is what you commented in response to my "Break News" tweet.

I said:

BREAKING!! There is a new Star Citizen ToS in the works. Sources say it is likely to go online with the 3.0 release.

Remember May 2016 when I said a ToS change was in the works for 2.0 & would REMOVE backer promises? Then it happened? Sure you do.

You said:

meh, wouldn't really call that breaking news, more like just stating something that anybody would expect to happen anyways, cause it seems like common practice these days. I am greeted with a new TOS frequently for so much of my games and service when ever they update (some for small updates and others with large updates).

And the comparison to Donald Trump is so nonsensical, I don't even know where to begin with that.

All you're doing, basically 100% what Serendipity was doing, is finding every reason to make asinine statements which have no basis for further discussion.

A ToS change is perfectly normal; even some companies update them when things like privacy disclosures, liability, company/product info change etc. It's normal.

What's NOT normal is that CIG has, since the start, made ToS changes which are primarily geared toward walking back and removing promises made to backers, while reducing their liabilities. That's not a normal or standard ToS change. And unlike you, I have tracked EACH and EVERY change they have made, while highlighting every single one, as well as the ramifications therein.

So yes, while YOU don't think it's "breaking news" that yet another ToS change is inbound, and which if history repeats itself is going to be changes similar to previous, but geared toward whatever bullshit they've come up with to justify 3.0 as the MVP/EA build, we do. And if it wasn't serious, a source won't have specifically mentioned it.

[dsmart]

Going back to the origin of this looped up discussion - Moeis was just stating he's not buying into Dr. Smart's *BREAKING NEWS* label to the fact that is the incoming TOS change. I think a more reasonable explanation as to why this label is and will be needed is that not all people have all the "data points plotted" (as Orgetorix explained), ergo, for them this TOS change will truthfully be breaking news because they hadn't expected this. Also, this is a gimmick that's used to draw attention applied by any news agency as far back as the dawn of the newspapers. It doesn't mean the news would be breaking to 100% or even sometimes 10% of the people reading them but will most probably mentally force them to re-read the title.

Therefore, because Moeis saw through this gimmick, it's not reasonably justifiable to go as far as calling him ignorant and obtuse all because he's had controversial posts elsewhere in the forum.

I think something is lost in translation. Hopefully my previous post where I quoted what I wrote, and his response, jogs everyone's memory back to reality.

The point being, it's breaking news because it's new, and nobody saw it coming as nobody would be expecting yet another ToS change when the last one was barely a year ago in June 2016.

And a breaking news tag isn't a gimmick. It's designed to signify something that's very important and which should be noticed. That's why I don't use it often, only when absolutely necessary. In this case, as I explained about the ToS, it is absolutely necessary.

For one thing, most people DO NOT read these ToS documents. And they ALL have been enforced in lawsuits when challenged. So if they change it to the point where, refunds aside, it removes any/all backer rights, then it's going to be 100% enforceable in court if you agree to it before downloading whatever build they attack it to. Why else do you think there was so much noise and news surrounding the June 2016 ToS change, to the extent that it made so many news headlines?

I agree that the arguments tend to get heated around here, and I have personally had to moderate some of them. However, I think that in the case of this person, like Serendipity before him, it's just frustrating that he's never - ever - engaged in an argument that made any sense, let alone justified any reasonable position. His saying that my Tweet isn't "breaking news", is just another example of that. Ponder this. Trolling aside, if it wasn't important, why did he even feel the need to comment on it?

And he just did the same thing with that whale refund on Reddit.

All he's doing - just like Serendipity before him - is coming up with stupendously stupid arguments that just frustrates everyone. And he's not banned yet because I don't yet have the data I need to confirm (as I did back when he was ConfusedMonkeh) that it is in fact him. Once I do, I am perma-banning both accounts (NOTE: Serendipity's temp ban already expired, but he hasn't logged in or posted. Curious).

[Motto]

So, Sandi decided to tweet something wonderful again about the ongoing development of Star Citizen. This time...... shirts!. Now even in the replies people are asking here to stop wasting time on bullshit stuff and deliver 3.0 already 

[dsmart]

So, Sandi decided to tweet something wonderful again about the ongoing development of Star Citizen. This time...... shirts!. Now even in the replies people are asking here to stop wasting time on bullshit stuff and deliver 3.0 already 

Yeah, we've been discussing that on Discord. It's amazing, really.

[N0mad]

I am trying to figure out what a marketing team would do to help get 3.0 out any faster?

OK then, so we already know that they've spent many many man hours making clothing (including the ability to wear clothes on top of others) for their male models, with all the work having to be repeated for the female model of course. This task will also take up programmer time as well (being able to purchase said clothing / persisting / changing models and textures via UI etc).

So, do you think that this was time well spent? Or perhaps a sign of poor project management where the time spent making fidelicious clothes could have been better spent making a game?

[Moeis]

I am trying to figure out what a marketing team would do to help get 3.0 out any faster?

OK then, so we already know that they've spent many many man hours making clothing (including the ability to wear clothes on top of others) for their male models, with all the work having to be repeated for the female model of course. This task will also take up programmer time as well (being able to purchase said clothing / persisting / changing models and textures via UI etc).

So, do you think that this was time well spent? Or perhaps a sign of poor project management where the time spent making fidelicious clothes could have been better spent making a game?

I made a mistake, I didn't notice shirts was a link, so I thought real shirts that can be ordered for real people to wear.  After reading what you said, I noticed it was a link.

Yes, spending to much time on some of the frivolous stuff I disagree with and said in CIG forums, like I did with the whole needing to go to the toilet thing.

[Backer42]

They spent time on making things like skins to monetize them like they have an already finished base game.

Just  that the base game isn't there and the items are useless.

[Motto]

I'm guessing Chris had aimed for some sort of persitance by now that would allow them to start selling actual items already to keep the funds going.

OH MAN, now it got it! They're gonna sell concept art of clothing at ShitizenCon! Pretty pictures of nice clothing you can wear once the game is finished but already purchased in the pre-alpha state. There'll probably be a one time only (for now) T-shirt with the words Pre-Alpha 3.0 Backer on it, and the exclusive naming rights as well. So if two people are called John and want their name printed on the back, one of them will miss out. Should have paid more I guess...

[Moeis]

I'm guessing Chris had aimed for some sort of persitance by now that would allow them to start selling actual items already to keep the funds going.

OH MAN, now it got it! They're gonna sell concept art of clothing at ShitizenCon! Pretty pictures of nice clothing you can wear once the game is finished but already purchased in the pre-alpha state. There'll probably be a one time only (for now) T-shirt with the words Pre-Alpha 3.0 Backer on it, and the exclusive naming rights as well. So if two people are called John and want their name printed on the back, one of them will miss out. Should have paid more I guess...

Don't know about nameplates, but I do not doubt that buying shirt designs for in game with real money is on its way, bobble heads (and others mentioned on the stretch goal) as well.

[Bubba]

Just an observation. On teh interwebs, use the principle of charity. If someone says "This is as much breaking news as President Trump will tweet something stupid tomorrow," accept it in most  intelligent interpretation of the spirit in which it is given.
That is: "No sh*", just like the President can be guaranteed in the coming week to undermine his own ultra-conservative agenda with tweets that shock all but the hood-and-jackboot set, so CR can be guaranteed to change the SC ToS to maximize his profits and minimize his apparent legal liability.
So, I agree. It's not news that CR is gonna screw over his supporters. I mean, that's why these forums are here. And  I wouldn't post any hot scoops; because if CR isn't down to his last dime, he will try to discredit you. Playbook move: give your detractors a leader and discredit that person. We can read just how screwed up things are from CIG's own statements. I've been following PC games since the late '70s, and know damn well that most game companies screw up by talking about features they haven't implemented, and so you have to go on what they can actually show. CIG has changed the paradigm; they actually show features they haven't talked about, let alone implemented. And CR talks about a lot of unimplemented features. So give my observationx a charitable reading.
So concede the point; he might have followed you from Reddit, but you've nothing to gain from claiming that.

[dsmart]

So concede the point; he might have followed you from Reddit, but you've nothing to gain from claiming that.

Heh, right.

[nightfire]

(NOTE: Serendipity's temp ban already expired, but he hasn't logged in or posted. Curious).

Please, don’t trigger the unimaginable (butterfly effect etc…). The sanity level in the forum was just about to reach average normal again, and I managed to keep up without having to go back 10 pages only because I was away for one day