Star Citizen – General Discussions

Main Star Citizen – General Discussions

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    heh, Goon effort poster is on a roll today:

    “Who would have predicted they’d hype Star Marine for over a year — raising money and garnering gaming media puff pieces with constant promises of pending release — then quietly pull it? Who would’ve predicted Chris eventually lashing out at people who dared to ask, “What happened to Star Marine?”

    Who would have imagined they’d so fantastically botch their year end livestream, after already botching several other high-profile live events?

    Who would’ve expected they’d prioritize rushing a huge collection of layerable clothes for their universal white, male, brunette spacedoll before they prioritized getting one female model into the game?

    Who dare believed after they’d drawn criticism for allegations of wasteful spending that they’d waste backer money with impugnity so they could turn their flagship HQ office into a Restoration Hardware showroom?

    For that matter, who would’ve expected, after being accused of secretly pursuing an acting career while pretending to work full time that the VP of Marketing would film yet more movies? That she would even choose to appear in official (and bizarre) Squadron 42 PR clips sporting fake tattoos from yet another undisclosed TV or film role?

    Who would have imagined they’d put their big, buggy cash engine game on the backburner — the one that serves as home to all those spaceships they’ve pre-sold — just so they could focus on rushing out their other pre-sold game, the one that can’t possibly hope to generate a fraction of the revenue?

    Who would’ve expected they had no big road map for the Star Citizen PU after several years of pitching it? After raising nine figures in the process?

    And who would’ve expected we’d see toxic backers dog-piling a guy with Stage 4 colon cancer simply for posting a light-hearted video called “Am I too stupid to play Star Citizen?” — Or that, after learning about it, CIG would stand by doing nothing to make it right?

    I could go on and on citing examples — we all could. We have chronicled it all here while most ignored it and many denied the implications or gravity.

    Yet there is always more and it is always worse. It is our perpetual refrain and a prophecy itself. It has proven truer and more trustworthy than I ever believed possible when first I read it. It surely will again.

    In spite of some of the biggest unforced errors in gaming history, CIG has proven exceptionally good at two things: selling outrageously priced spaceships (or IOUs for them) and the fantasy of the incredible gaming universe those ships will one day fly in. That is The Dream they have sold from the very start. That they clearly can not deliver what they’ve promised yet profit enormously by selling it anyway, is an outage without precedent in the history of gaming.

    That outrage does not start to become true when the Gaming Press eventually declares it so, or when some broad consensus emerges amongst the backers and they capitulate to the outrageous truth. It does not become less true because the gaming industry’s most notorious fight-picking Alpha Troll declared it true first. The truth is not diluted just because a handful of jokers and snarkers on a backwater comedy site made a daily practice of finding the black humor in it while most around us were tripping around high on spaceship fumes and theorycrafting about space brothels and 1000 player space battles.

    It is true right now. It has been for some time.

    Unfortunately for Chris and Sandi, while they were busy selling the impossible dream, their competitors have been working on space games. Great space games. Games that will soon create far more wealth than CIG has amassed and mostly misspent. Games that will produce ongoing returns through sequels, dlc, merchandise, critical praise and yes, the gratitude of their customers; gratitude for giving them a wonderful gaming experience for a price they could afford.

    CIG can’t expect gaming outlets not to draw comparisons, can’t expect the glaring shortcomings of their “Best Damn Space Sim  Ever” to keep being glossed over because “it’s pre-alpha!”, or because some other game took longer to develop or whatever.

    Mass Effect: Andromeda — a game with 100 beautiful handcrafted planets with diverse ecosystems, a huge galactic map, smart and colorful companion characters, a surprisingly rich lore, fantastic facial animations, brilliant FPS, a robust integrated multiplayer solution, and more — was built from the ground up using an entirely new engine in the same time it’s taken CIG to build 1/100 systems, 2/5th of their sold ships, 1/4 of their promised features, and a broken FPS.

    Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare took 3 years– and added spaceships and zero-G combat in that time.

    Elite had a playable game with incredible ship physics and a simulated-to-scale galaxy in even less time– and it grows better, richer, and deeper with each new iteration.

    And Starfield — terrifying, misunderstood Starfield — hasn’t even revealed its devastating scope and ambition.(edited)

    Each one of these superior space games cost much, much less to develop and will cost nearly all players much less to own.

    $114M over 4.5 years can buy you a lot of things– but the price you pay, particularly after spending so much of that time promising the world and bragging about your superiority, is that it also bought you the very highest of expectations. And CIG can not meet them. Can’t even come close to meeting them. But their competitors have a shot– a very good shot– and in some cases, the competition is poised to exceed even the lofty expectations set by self-declared best of them. And the Gaming Press, who I’ve decried often, are going to declare these things to be true as those games arrive and make the self-declared Best Damn Space Sim Ever look pretty painfully shallow, dull, and lifeless by comparison. And late, so very late.

    So, in answer to your question, it doesn’t take a clairvoyant to see too far into the future. Some dates are fixed — at least for competitive releases (CIG’s are ever and always subject to revision). CIG is on a collision course of their own choosing — their unstoppable farce is slated to collide with a lot of immovable objects, where they will splinter like balsa wood spaceships into a million toothpicks.

    It seems to me, as in a prophecy of old, that the writing is on the wall.


    CIG will be weighed in the scales and found wanting. They will be cast down for their hubris. And their kingdom will be divided and given to their competitors.”

    Hyco Cam

    Saw that picture on the SA forums.  Folks were thinking it was a Mexican flag, but that sure does look like the coastline around Monaco.  Lots of Google images for comparison.  The emblem in the middle of the flag does make you wonder–the State Ensign version of the Italian flag?

    Was also mention of CR looking into a vineyard.  A vineyard makes a lot of sense as CR’s next venture.  I do think the wine will be a little salty though, being that it will be made from Star Citizen tears.

    Sure wish you hadn’t linked that Goon article.  Reading the SA thread is full of hilarity–but such a time sucker!!  Been tempted to pony up the $10 to join in the fun, but then I’d really worry about the time suckage!


    A Goon effort poster has put up one of his masterpiece effort posts. It’s worth the read.


    CIG can’t compete with the AAA Space Games they know about — and the certainly can’t compete with the ones they don’t know about. They are a floundering, disorganized studio — the Ad Hoc-iest game studio in recent memory — and they’ve betrayed this very fact repeatedly without intending to in the very shows meant to boost backer confidence in the project. 

    Over the last month or so, I have been astonished to see how many new faces have appeared on “Around the Verse”. This most recent episode features an employee in LA who was on his very first day of work. His very first day. 

    I don’t mean by mentioning him to impugn his talent or question his worth. He might be a great hire– as might be all the new hires. But CIG is a Gaming Studio whose revolving door spins like a top — so many leaving, so many coming in. It might take 3-6 months before a new hire reaches something approximating productivity. Yet CIG is not a well-tuned engine made faster or more efficient once new employees learn the ropes, it is a bucket brigade. Some fight fires, others try to keep the thing afloat. 

    Rockstar, Bethesda, Infinity Ward, Bioware– these are machines. Work doesn’t grind to a halt because some guy broke his arm, or because they lose a key employee, or because they can’t fill a position. They may occasionally push a release date back three months, they may occasionally even lose a badass. But deadlines matter to them because they make their money AFTER release, not before. 

    And the most successful of them hardly lose employees at all. Bethesda Softworks has 100 employees. Some have worked together 5,10 even 20 years. Todd Howard touched on the mysterious shorthand that emerges between people who’ve worked together closely for that long in a recent speech at DICE. There are synergies CIG can’t even dream of once a studio achieves that level of cohesion. It took 100 people 4 years to put out Fallout 4– and they made nearly $1B in 24 hours upon release. CIG can’t compete against such studios because they can’t compete like them.


    “Why, it’s just the way the Games Industry works!”, the backers always retort, as some did when Mark Skelton’s surprise departure was announced only days ago. “You know nothing about Game Development if you don’t know that!”

    Alas, would that that were true. Would that it all were true! Than the steady flow of CIG arrivals and departures was a sign of the relative health of the company; a sign of good things to come for Star Citizen andSquadron 42

    Yet the perpetual turnover and ad hoc development habits of Cloud Imperium Games are not typical of every studio.

    Nor are logjams where two years of motion capture animations pile up undeployed because there’s no Technical Animator on-hand to port them into the game.

    Nor is starting a new year without a development roadmap for the year ahead, necessitating ad hoc spitballing sessions between management power players spread across the globe. 

    Nor is prioritizing the addition of in-game Spacedoll clothes shopping when your tutorial is broken, your flight model ludicrous, and your FPS so bad you can put a clip full of bullets in an opponents head, only to watch him strike a T Pose and hover away.


    It explains quite neatly why Star Citizen remains in an unstable Alpha state, 4.5 years in, with less than 10% of its promised content and features available for players. A company like CIG does not have time to anticipate and then respond to their competitive threats because…

    …Their Developers are too busy lining up all of Chris Roberts promised game features and deciding which ones to shoot in the head…

    …Their QA teams are documenting bugs squashed months ago somehow resurrected with new patches…

    …Their Customer Support folks are busy sending canned “too bad, so sad” replies to people asking for refunds…

    … Their Community Team is too busy putting out weekly tv shows about Wing Commander arcana while denying viewers answers about delivery dates for content…

    … Their Visionary Leader is too busy shooting even more footage for a long overdue single player game unlikely to ever recoup its development budget…

    …and their Marketing Team, such as it is, continues to pursue her Hollywood dream while not even bothering to stay abreast of basic game developments like Evocati testing…

    How can they respond to threats from without when fighting threats from within is a fulltime job?

    I know this was true for the last few years, when Chris Roberts thought the Space Game race market would be fought over between him and his Frenemy of old, David Braben.

    But 2016 has been a wake up call. and from what I can tell, yesteryear’s sense of Manifest Destiny is beginning to crumble in the senior leadership. It is one thing to make offhand claims about developing a shooter on par with Call of Duty when you’re primary competition is a space game that hasn’t yet added space legs. It is quite another when the latest “Call of Duty” game is set in space and includes space dogfighting missions and Zero G combat.

    “I sense a disturbance in The Farce…”

    Except they may not have anything super impressive to show. They unfortunately now live in a world where the Admiral Bishop speech will be compared with Infinite Warfare cutscenes. It’s going to be really hard to compete against that kind of polish, especially when Infinity Ward specifically prioritized improving the CoD storytelling elements and brought in some of the creatives behind “The Last of Us” and “Uncharted 4” to do just that. 

    Chris Roberts told us that AAA studios make creatively compromised games and subordinate creative visionaries to beancounter concerns. And in 3 years time, one of the biggest AAA franchises in gaming history has cooked up a Dogfighting and FPS movie game that Squadron 42 must now prove superior to, lest Chris’ narrative be repudiated. I’m going out on a limb here, but I kinda think he’s parped on that front

    Hey, I agree with this.

    When I originally predicted a possible Hamill appearance, it was as much about reinforcing backer confidence during an event that’s likely to erode it. 

    A Hamill appearance gets Chris a warmer crowd than he might otherwise enjoy, and that’s going to come across better on the livestream, but Hamill can’t use the Force and make new people buy this game when a lot of other E3 signals might be saying, “This aren’t the games you’re looking for. Move along. Move along.” I think we might see a bump in sales, but only that.

    The bigger problem coming out of E3 is one I’ve harped for while.

    There’s a lot of truth to this– but I disagree with your final conclusion. There are different types of Media– so many– and while the Gaming Press in general isn’t spoiling for fights and gives hardly a crap for any public interest concerns of gamers, they’re not the only Media with claim to this story.

    The Largest Crowdfunding Success in history is a big fat target. Crowdfunding as a financing method is under increasing scrutiny with some colorful and in some cases high profile failures. The Business Press (WSJ / FT / BusinessWeek / etc.) has an interest in stories that explore that angle and if CIG isn’t worried about that possibility yet, they really should be. Why? Because those outlets are especially inclined to chase tales of financial waste / misappropriations / fraud / profiteering / etc. They don’t just get a few anonymous sources and call it a day. They’ve got investigative resources most Gaming Journos (click-farming bloggers) just wouldn’t dream of. They’re not scared off pissing their targets- in high profile cases, they sometimes savor that part especially. Plus, the rags they work for have insurance, lawyers, and the prestige of their name. 

    It’s one thing for a journo at Destructoid or MassivelyOP to email seeking comment. They’re easy to blow off — what’s the worst that’s going to happen? 

    It’s another thing if a reporter with the WSJ calls. Or the business desk at NYT. Or Washington Post. Or Businessweek. 

    I’m not saying that’s who breaks the story, mind you. I honestly have no clue. But I know without any doubt that CIG won’t get a permanent pass. We all know they’re not releasing Star Citizen this year and Squadron 42 isn’t likely releasing this year, either. That is a motivation for a lot of parties to reasses the whole thing.

    All the big competitor games are get one further reason to start changing the Star Citizen narrative — and frankly, five gets you ten that we are going to see stories coming out of E3 of the “Is Mass Effect Andromeda a Star Citizen killer?” And “Space Games Wars: The Big Publishing Empire Strikes Back!”

    Just a bunch.

    We don’t have to wait for some new Derek Smart to push them. The forces that will push them are already on the calendar– and Star Citizen is off the calendar. That in itself is a story– and I think it’s going to get told.

    These narratives are too ironic not to tempt a journalist or two, and Mark Hamill’s presence makes the connection so obvious even a Gaming Journalist might figure it out. 

    If I were Chris, I’d be very, very worried about this. If he employed real Marketing and Brand expertise, they’d have warned of this very risk a long time ago, and they’d have made course corrections to reduce the risk. But he doesn’t, and they didn’t, and now we’re here.

    Ranger Man

    Where do I find this Goon’s site.  Some searches have turned up references to him but no site/videos on Youtube.  He writes well and realistically.



    Another Goon post. This one is his reader feedback sent into a recent Guard Frequency broadcast that I was on.

    Your interview with Derek Smart came as quite a surprise to me. He is a lightning rod in the backer community and I hope you weren’t electrocuted by holding on to it for 90 minutes. It took a lot of courage and I applaud you for it. I expect you’ve heard an earful about Derek’s sins as troll and failings as a developer. We all have. How strange it seems that the claims of a supposedly irrelevant, mediocre hack have been given so much attention, yet so little scrutiny has been given to the claims of Chris Roberts. He is, after all, the man making the game we all wanted, right?

    • Over four years ago, Chris Roberts claimed that he wanted to make the kind of Space Sim that Publishers would never dare fund, and in response, Roberts was given the greatest gift in gaming history– a war chest of $114 million dollars, absolute creative control, with no oversight and no deadlines.

    • Chris Roberts claimed he would build “a huge universe to explore, trade and adventure in”, yet four years later, he’s given us one planet that we can not land on and nothing to trade beyond Big Benny’s machines.

    • Chris Roberts claimed Star Citizen would offer an FPS experience as good or better than Battlefield and Arma– yet after 4 years in, players routinely find themselves unloading a clip into an opponent at point blank range to no effect whatsoever. There are no cover mechanics, no squad coordination, and no means to distinguish friend from foe.

    • Chris Roberts claimed both Squadron 42 and Star Citizen would be VR compatible– and yet he has rendered it impossible with forced player animations, headbobs, and slow frame rates even on advanced GPUs. VR won’t be retrofitted onto this game, it can’t be. 

    I could go on, yet surely the point is obvious– Chris Roberts is not credible. Period. He has missed nearly every release date he himself set. He has delivered the tiniest fraction of what he pitched. Much of the rest may be technically impossible.


    Less than than 1/3 of the ships he has thusfar sold are available to fly after 4 years. Out of supposedly 100 Star Systems planned, we can currently explore one incomplete system without a star. But there is nothing to find beyond rudimentary “go here, do (X), and leave” quests. Let’s be charitable and say we are somehow halfway through the development cycle for Star Citizen 1.0 and that the game will be finished within another 4.5 years. Does anyone really believe the funding will continue another 4.5 years? Or that a game begun in 2012 will be compelling in 2020? 

    Derek Smart has said many of these things for nearly a year. In that time, he’s also had some meltdowns, taken some cheap shots, he has dared CIG to sue him, and has done a lot I could never defend. But what can I say? He’s Derek Smart. Yet at this point, he’s has proven more credible in his critiques of Star Citizen than Chris Roberts has in his predictions for it. Rather than decrying Smart for his trollish moments, his warlord battle cries, it seems to me time that backers should start asking harder questions of Chris Roberts. He is the one with $114 million dollars. He has the one signed “The Pledge”, which began, “We, the Star Citizen Team at Cloud Imperium, hereby promise to deliver the game you expect.”

    It’s 4.5 years in, and considering all the work left to do, it’s looking pretty grim. It will look grimmer still in the months ahead, because those creativity-killing publishers Chris Roberts decried have some AAA space titles slated for release. Star Citizen will be judged against “Mass Effect: Andromeda”, “No Man’s Sky” and of course the ever improving “Elite”. Bethesda’s long secret “Starfield” project shouldn’t be underestimated, either. They’ve planning planning a go at a Space RPG since 1996– and, well, they’ve learned quite a bit in 20 years. “Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare” will present similar challenges for “Squadron 42”. Both are hybrid space dogfighters with FPS. Both have Hollywood casts and motion captured dramas. The one with a multiplayer mode loved by 15 million or more people will ship this fall. The other will likely be delayed into 2017. Or later.

    This is our present reality – a marketplace once bereft of Space Games is now filling up with them, and some look damn exciting to me. None had the budget or the freedom Chris Roberts has had with Star Citizen. It’s time to ask him harder questions, and if not, to ask ourselves why we can not.”


    The resident Goon effort poster, has one of his analysis up. In case you don’t have access, here is the full text.

    If you want a vision of the purgatorial gaming experience that is Star Citizen, I invite you to watch Batgirl’s latest episode, “Star Citizen AA MORE FUN IN THE PU”

    So, early in the video she notes that she’s running 2.4 on a machine that can run all other games in max settings with no difficulties whatsoever– on her overclocked 970, i7 (I think), liquid cooler, etc… But of course her frame rates are terrible through much of this.

    She decides she’s going to earn some AlphaUEC by performing on the low-paying “let’s go flip a switch inside a satellite array” mission…

    She parks her ship an absurd distance from the array. Why? Because she’s worried about being shot if she starts too close. If there’s one thing Chris Roberts has taught players, it’s fear of mortality. Death should have consequences– and by ‘consequences’, Chris means teleportation back to a bed a bazillion pretend miles away, followed by indeterminable sprint-a-thons through generic sci-fi hallways so you can mash a button on an ATM machine for spaceships which you sprint through yet more hallways to hopefully board, followed by flying through a bazillion miles of pretend space so you can get back to where you were before that oh so consequential death occurred.


    8:45 – PARKING THE SHIP – Batgirl parks her ship in the space boonies and starts floating her way towards the array. Over the course of the float, she notes “I’m finding, the game… It’s pretty much a boring game right now.” Well, yeah. Parking your ship over two minutes away from a mission objective that is as fun as flipping on a light switch does seem a bit light on the thrill factor…

    10:55 – ARRIVAL AT THE ENTRANCE – Finally, she’s floated her way to the outside of the array. The mission begins!

    11:25 – MISSION COMPLETE – Thirty seconds are spent floating through the bowels of the ship to flip the all important ON switch. Uplink online! 1000 credits earned!

    11:59 – ESCAPE! – After some frightening encounters with giant pipes and a non-fatal bonk on the noggin, she’s finally FREE!

    13:39 – RETURN TO THE SHIP – She is back in business, 1000 temporary credits richer!


    Now, lets ignore the fact that she repeats the mission at other arrays, and fast forward to yet another moment of such absolute absurdity that it must be watched to be fully appreciated.

    21:51- THIS PART SAYS EVERYTHING“In real life, I’m freaking awesome at landing an airplane! But I can’t land a spaceship to save my frickin’ life!”

    Now, you can watch the whole thing from the link above if you want, but if you want to get to the final indignity she endures for the sake of the game she clearly loves, watch her make her final attempt at landing.

    36:32 – TOUCHDOWN! – What else do you need to know about this game?

    She spent 40 minutes playing and, so far as I can tell, earned 3000 temporary credits. (Please correct me if I’m wrong- I wasn’t watching THAT closely.) A fun exercise would be digging into the 2.4 stores and seeing what that 40 minutes of play time earned her.

    More fun in the PU, indeed!


    Hotsauce ShoTYME

    From the official forums a few posts down from the loaf

    Derek Smart is a blowhard idiot but handing him more ammunition that fits in with his narrative is incredibly short sighted at best and heinously stupid at worst”

    I just stopped laughing

    lir big

    Yes, all of this, very good sum of what we’ve basically been saying.

    “The only reason IMO that croberts is STILL running his scam is because he successfully created a cult”

    Absolutely. You have pointed out something very important imo wich is a core to this whole waste.


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