Star Citizen – TOS

Main Star Citizen – TOS

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  • #1479

    dsmart
    Keymaster

    UPDATE 18/01/25

    So there’s another TOS revision released Jan 25th, 2018. You can compare it to the previous June 10, 2016 version.

    I called this one back in Sept when I heard about it from sources. At the time, it was speculated that it would be released with the new website which was also expected to go live around the time of the 3.0 “release”. But the website didn’t launch, 3.0 was an unmitigated disaster, then the holidays happened. Compared to the previous June, 10th, 2016 TOS version, it’s amazing.

    If you have been following my TOS forum which tracks these changes, then you should already be familiar with how they have systematically not only revised them to continue screwing backers, but also to reduce their liability and obligations. This latest version is worse. First of all, the Fundraising & Pledges section has been completely re-written – again. It also now comes with a disclaimer:

    RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services. Your pledge entitles you to receive the selected in-game items when they are developed and introduced into the Alpha releases of Star Citizen and/or to receive the game Squadron 42, as selected. Please read this clause carefully to understand the differences between crowdfunding and a purchase.”

    Not sure how they are now going to explain charging VAT in EU nations.

    If you thought the above was bad, wait, there’s more…

    The Pledge Funds will be earned by RSI at the earlier of:

    • when the Pledge Item becomes functional in Star Citizen’s Alpha Persistent Universe (or is delivered separately, such as the game Squadron 42), or
    • when your Pledge Funds have been expended for the Game Cost.

    Yes. So basically, once you have bought into the game, say they implemented a particular ship which you own, they can deny you a refund, even though the rest of the game may be incomplete and not delivered at the time.

    Remember back when I said 3.0 was the MVP? Now we see why sources were saying back in the Summer that this TOS coming with 3.0 was going to set the stage for what was to come.

    Then, buried in the Miscellaneous Terms section at the bottom is this…

    Governing Law. These TOS shall be governed and construed by the laws of England and Wales. The competent courts of Manchester, England shall have the non-exclusive right to hear any dispute or claim arising out of or in connection with these Terms of Use. As noted in these TOS, your conduct may also be subject to other local, state, national, and international laws.

    These clowns really think that, with their head office and base of operations being here in the US, that if they are sued under the TOS, that a US court is going to totally allow an English court to have jurisdiction. I can’t wait.


    UPDATE 16/06/10

    And it came to pass that the new June 2016 ToS has been released with the latest 2.4 “patch” going live.

    Here is a handy comparison between the previous Feb 2015 v1.2 and this latest June 2016 version.

    I am working on a blog; but the highlights and implications of this new ToS are:

    1. They can deliver anything (e.g. Minimum Viable Product as I wrote in this blog) they like, and it doesn’t have to resemble anything promised and which you backed. Which means that everything you see here in the stretch goals – and which you backed – is now meaningless. Those concept ships which have yet to be modeled, let alone flight ready? They don’t have to create them
    2. They are under no obligation to deliver anything – like ever
    3. You are not entitled to refunds – for any reason – like ever
    4. They can ban your account – for any reason – delete it, and not refund you
    5. If you buy an account and they find out, they can terminate the account and not refund you. This is essentially to kill the Grey market (Star Citizen trades has now been removed from the Reddit subs), prevent people from buying accounts and/or holding CIG accountable etc
    6. The disparaging CS tagging (1, 2) that occurred just this week, gives rise to how they were seeking to identify backers outside of their website/services, in order to identify their accounts and terminate them – without cause (other than because you were a dissenter)
    7. They no longer owe backers any financial accountability for where the money went. This was one of the key points they used as a carrot during this funding. That, and the ability to do refunds. Both have now been removed.
    8. There is no release date for anything. The 18 month (which was previous 12 months in prior ToS revisions) time frame to deliver following the original Nov 2014 date, has been removed
    9. The new ToS is an agreement with RSI and not CIG as before. Considering that they have a bunch of corporated entities associated with this, the implications of this change are not yet clear to me. UPDATE: After speaking with my attorneys, we view this move as an attempt to shift liability (lawsuits, creditors, investors etc) from CIG, and to the subsidiary (RSI). This is a common tactic used when businesses are setup. In fact, it clearly explains all these entities associated with this project. So when this project collapses – as I am certain that it will, seeing as they can’t deliver it as promised – CIG (which is the parent) will be shielded from the lawsuits and liabilites of RSI. However, according to the law, in cases where fraud is uncovered, there is no such protection.
    10. They say you agree not to sue them – like ever

    In the meantime, if you ever want legal recourse, do NOT download the 2.4 patch and do NOT do ANYTHING on their site and/or services in which you are required to agree to this new ToS. The only way you are able to give expressed consent, is if you download the 2.4 game launcher and press the AGREE button. Visiting the website, sending them emails, opening support tickets etc do not convey consent.

    TO BE CLEAR: This new ToS only applies to i) new backers from this date forward who download the game and agree to the new ToS ii) existing backers who are presented (e.g. in the game launcher) with the new ToS, and which they have to agree to

    Since July 2015, I have been making a lot of noise about the ToS (which they have changed many times to suit their actions) and the fact that RSI/CIG are required to provide refunds and financial accountability to backers for failure to deliver the promised game, 18 months from the expiration Feb 2015 ToS v1.2. Those two clauses triggered on May 31st, 2016. And instead of abiding by them, they decided to create a new ToS which not only removes those clauses, but it also strips even more rights from backers who have thus far given them $115 million. A lot of Shitizens said I was wrong about the ToS interpretation, that I didn’t understand it, blah, blah, blah. Yet, with the latest 2.4 patch disaster hurriedly pushed to live (conveniently ahead of E3 which they recently backed out of attending), they have done precisely as I said and expected that they would.

    This is CIG. There’s always more; and it’s always worse.


    UPDATE 16/05/24: Sources are telling me that a new ToS revision is in the works and will be shoved through either in the upcoming public release of 2.4 or thereafter. If you ever hope to get financial accountability or refunds – two of the key provisions of the current ToS v1.2 – do not agree to it. On June 1st, backers have the legal right to both a refund and financial accountability as promised.

    Make no mistake, several things are in the works, and there are going to be legal ramifications – including the complete decimation of the arbitration clause introduced in ToS 1.1 by people who never agreed to that ToS revision.


    Everyone knows by now that since the shoddy and premature release of Star Citizen (aka Persistent Universe) v2.0 in Dec 2015, they’re now claiming that it is substantial update, so they’re refusing refunds.

    Below are all the different ToS revisions since the start of this project. The Kickstarter ToS would be active from 12-10-18 to 12-11-19 when the campaign started and ended there.

    12-09-13 // Original version from RSI website before they moved the campaign to Kickstarter. No arbitration clause.

    13-08-13 // v1.0, No arbitration clause. 

    13-08-29 // v1.1, Arbitration clause appears in VIII

    15-02-01 // v1.2, Arbitration clause appears in XXII

    NOTE: If you pledged on Kickstarter, then you are subject to their ToS, as well as the RSI ToS which was active after the campaign ended and you had to access their site to create your citizen account.

    According to their  ToS v1.1 of 08/29/13 they said if they failed to deliver within 12 months of Nov 2014 (the original Kickstarter estimated delivery date), they would issue refunds. At the time, this non-delivery period would kick in during Nov 2015.

    IV. Charges & Billing
    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.

    Since that time, having already i) missed the Nov 2014 delivery date and ii) embarked on the increased scope (aka “vision 2.0”), thus extending the delivery date for the project, they surreptitiously made another changed in ToS v1.2 of 02/01/15 (which remains the current one on their website). The previous section was moved; and now reads:

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges
    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date communicated to you on the Website.  However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you within eighteen (18) months after the estimated delivery date.

    And in the current ToS, here is a key section that ties into the above:

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges
    For the avoidance of doubt, in consideration of RSI’s good faith efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Game with the funds raised, you agree that any Pledge amounts applied against the Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not RSI is able to complete and deliver the Game and/or the pledge items. In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost. In consideration of the promises by RSI hereunder, you agree that you shall irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any Pledge that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost in accordance with the above.

    The trigger in ToS v1.2 which will require (they won’t do it voluntarily) them to provide refunds and a full accounting, will expire 18 months from when they promised the project to be delivered on Nov 2014. It was set to expire in Nov 2015 as per the previous ToS. Then they extended it from 12 to 18 months. So the new expiration date is May 31, 2016 depending on when you backed the game and agreed to the ToS.

    However, it doesn’t matter when you backed the project; as long as you accessed their services (game, forum) and agreed to the ToS v1.2 revision when presented, you are subject to it. All previous versions would then be null and void. However, if you NEVER accessed their systems, and thus never agreed to ToS v1.2, then you are not only due a refund, but also due a full accounting as per the previous ToS versions.

    When it comes to dates…

    In the case of Kickstarter, it means the Nov 2014 date posted in the campaign.

    In the case of the original 2012 CIG website, it means the same as above.

    In the case of the CIG website, it means the dates such as this

    In this video interview from 2012 around the 8:50 mark, he again states that the game was two years out

    [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGE0_WSHGHc[/youtube]

    Gary Whitta:

    Chris thanks for joining us and seriously, congratulations on this tremendously successful funding effort, but I guess really now this is just the beginning of the actual difficult part which is building the game, when are we actually gonna see this thing?

    Chris Roberts:

    Ehh, well the… the… the FULL FINAL GAME will be approximately TWO YEARS from now but ahm, one of the advantages and I think the same is true on David’s Elite if… if you BACK IT EARLY, you know, besides being part of the COMMUNITY and the DISCUSSION, ah, and… and having your voice heard and seeing sort of what’s happening in the background so, you know I… we’re going to ah… you know, instead… we don’t have a PUBLISHER but you know what, we’re gonna TREAT OUR BACKERS the same way we would a PUBLISHER so when we get to a MILESTONE we’re gonna give them a SHOW AND TELL and all the STUFF and personally I’d rather do that to them than a publisher because I’m showing it to a hundred thousand people that really care about this and get EXCITED by it and so that’s kinda cool, but the other thing that you’ll be able to do is PLAY, ah, sort of the EARLY BUILDS and the way I’m… the way I’m sort of STRUCTURING is I’m trying to, ah… test out components of this overall bigger UNIVERSE along the way so I don’t just drop everything all at once so in TWELVE MONTHS TIME you’ll be able to play the SINGLE PLAYER… ah I mean sorry, sorry… the MULTIPLAYER DOGFIGHTING ALPHA which won’t be the full PERSISTENT UNIVERSE and it won’t be the single player game, but it WILL BE basically all the ships that you’ve PLEDGED FOR, think of it more like WORLD OF TANKS… and we’re gonna use that to ah… BALANCE THE COMBAT, uhm… you know, FINE TUNE it with the help of the community, and ah… try and see you know, exactly STRESS TEST how many people we can get in an instance at any one time and then, ah, you know… about SIX TO TEN MONTHS after that we’ll do a sort of BETA of the SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN which is SQUADRON 42 and then finally the FULL PERSISTENT UNIVERSE BETA to sort of ah, you know… gonna be about TWENTY MONTHS OR SO AFTER NOW and the LIVE RELEASE SHOULD BE ABOUT TWENTY FOUR MONTHS… but of course you know, there… it… there may be plus or minus a month here… well not minus… plus a month or so, on that… on the bigger thing at the end… but I’m PRETTY CONFIDENT about the DOGFIGHTING ALPHA IN TWELVE MONTHS

    SUMMARY:

    Hangar module <— released Aug 29th, 2013

    Dogfighting (aka Arena Commander) module Dec 2013 <— alpha released June 4, 2014

    Star Marine (full blown FPS module) <— canceled

    Social/Planetside module <— alpha released Aug 30th, 2015

    Persistent Universe Beta by August 2014 <— alpha released Dec 11, 2015 with 1 star system & 1 planet – which you can’t fly to

    Squadron 42 <— no show

    Full Final Game live release by Dec 2014 <— now 18th months past due, and with barely 10% of the promised features implemented

Viewing 8 replies - 25 through 32 (of 91 total)
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  • #3761

    SJ Parkinson
    Participant

    Is anyone taking regular backups of the RSI forums? One day they are just going to disappear and a record of what went on will be necessary.

    https://archive.org/web/ does a semi-decent job, but they only average a few bkps a month (3 in May, 3 in June.)

    A concise, up to date record seems needed before they start running their shredders and mashing delete keys wholesale.

    #3756

    lir big
    Participant

    tell them you still request a refund
    _ 14 days bollox is bollox
    _ you are to contact your bank and make them do a chargeback
    _ send a copy of the former ToS to your bank, as well as the new one so they see for themselve the fraud attempt
    _ tell them also you are filing in FTC and OLAF.
    _ Contact the anti fraud police of your country
    _ Keep sending them mails untill they process your refund

    #3755

    Yuri Belleri
    Participant

    I made my refund request two days ago (and i specified i not downloaded and agreed 2.4 launcher), this is the CIG answer

    Hi Yuri,

    Thank you very much for contacting us.

    I am very sorry to hear that you no longer wish to back Star Citizen, however we have reviewed your account status and we regret that we are not able to accommodate your request for a refund since it was received outside of the statutory 14 day period. I understand that this may seem unwelcoming, but unfortunately we are now obligated to send over the following information as protocol:

    You made your pledge to the crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for the development of “Star Citizen.” When you contributed your pledge it was applied to the building of the game and the team and resources needed to make it happen. The funds are not idly maintained in a bank account for months or years in case someone wants his/her money back. Cloud Imperium Games has been working diligently on the development of the game and has published extensive information on the development process on its website at robertsspaceindustries.com. We are very serious about accomplishing what we set out to do, which is to build a great game. We endeavor to keep everyone informed and educated on the progress of game development and what is accomplished with their support: reports, updates and web shows have been made available regularly, and our first gameplay offerings came online as early as fall of 2013. These offerings have been progressively and incrementally expanded over time to share access to the work in progress. We have created a substantial foundation for the game, and early release versions are currently available (see further detail below).

    As noted above, your payment was a deposit to be used for the “Game Cost” as defined in your crowdfunding pledge agreement (see Sec. 4 of the Commercial Terms, and Sec. IV.A of the subsequent Terms of Service, as applicable, https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos), and the deposit has since been “earned by CIG and become non-refundable” since it was “used for the Game Cost…” You also agreed to “irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any deposit amount that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost ….” The only exception would be a return of unearned funds remaining in case of an abandonment of the project; this exception does not apply as we have not abandoned development. If you pledged on Kickstarter, you agreed to these terms when you transferred your pledge account to robertsspaceindustries.com.

    Terms to this effect have been in the Terms of Service and/or Commercial Terms ever since Star Citizen’s crowdfunding began. They are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding and the foreseeable use of your pledge –it would not be appropriate to use current backers’ development pledges to refund an earlier pledge which has already been used for Game Cost. Put simply, “takebacks” are not in the spirit of crowdfunding, the effect would be to pull the rug out from under a team that is working hard to build what the crowd has asked them to build with their pledges.

    While quite a lot of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed. This is a direct result of the community’s declared desire to have the initial release version of the game developed to a much greater depth, detail, and fidelity than contemplated originally upon start of the campaign. It is inherent to the nature of crowdfunding that such an adjustment to the project may occur. We acknowledge that some individual backers may find the additional wait undesirable. However, as per Sec. VII of the Terms, you did “acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time.” Ultimately, this evolution of development will benefit all backers including yourself, since every backer will be receiving a much greater value for his/her pledge, but it may – as in this case – cause an extension of the delivery dates.

    Star Citizen is a project for gamers, by gamers. By financing the project using crowd funding, our team is not beholden to a publisher who would insist we ship a game unfinished, de-featured, or broken to meet a particular schedule. Thanks to continued backing of our community, we have the needed creative freedom over the project to push the boundaries of what is possible in gaming technology and to create a unique game with a unique approach. We feel the results such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity which have been highlighted in many reviews and community reactions, are already speaking for themselves!

    Please try out, if you haven’t already, the significant gameplay which is now available (see https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list) and we encourage you to download the installer from this url: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/download to patch up and play the latest version of the game.

    Again, we regret that we can’t comply with your refund request for the above reasons and sincerely hope you enjoy the updates both current and future in the Star Citizen ‘Verse.

    Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and if there is anything else we can assist with please let us know, thanks.

    For what i know and understood the new ToS cannot override local consumer protection law and for the Distance Selling Regulation actually i’m right with refund request.

    #3746

    lir big
    Participant

    If you have not dowloaded/logged to the new launcher you can apply for a refund.
    The CS contact last october 2015 was [email protected]
    Do not log into RSI site, as I don’t know if it counts for a ToS agreement ( Thought I htink I saw on SA forums someone who claimed to be in Law stuff that you can’t make someone sign in for a change in ToS with just a loggin to account). But its safer this way

    Then send a mail to the customer service saying
    _ You have not signed and thus require a refund.

    They may ask you for informations . Don’t give them any, they perfectly know how much you have pledged for, and the don’t need to know anything about you anyway.
    If they try some bad moves such as the 14 bullshit grace time or anything shady add this :

    _ referring to your bank for a chargeback option, send them the former ToS as proof.
    _ 14 days grace time applies only to delivered products within the USA.
    _ you’re under the European Court so :
    http://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud//home_en
    Also add anything relating to the anti-fraud policy in the Europe. Google for unfair contract, non delivering of goods and service/europe.

    Be really really quick because they might as well be taking the tickets for their way off to a foreign country.

    #3742

    lir big
    Participant

    They only deserve to loose their money, and moreover they’re happy to do so.

    #3740

    Hello guys,

     

    Me and my friends want to ask for refund. We have not signed the new TOS and we live in europe. we can get?

    thanks for response

    #3736

    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Yeah, they are right. It is in my original post (item #9) in this thread. And I also Tweeted about it yesterday as well. It’s good that people are doing their own legal research into this new ToS nonsense.

    #3734

    Martijn Otto
    Participant

    In the comments of this video, Major Tom said this:

    “By removing CIG from the ToS entirely they remove liability from CIG (Cloud Imperium Games) and shift it to RSI (Robert Space Industries). Since Robert Space Industries is a subsidy of CIG, when (or if) the project crashes, the parent company can technically claim no liability (see https://www.invigorlaw.com/when-can…-parent-entity/ )”

Viewing 8 replies - 25 through 32 (of 91 total)

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