Star Citizen – TOS

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  • #1479
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    UPDATE 16/06/10: And it came to pass that the new June 2016 ToS has been released with the latest 2.4 “patch” going live.

    Here is a handy comparison between the previous Feb 2015 v1.2 and this latest June 2016 version.

    I am working on a blog; but the highlights and implications of this new ToS are:

    1. They can deliver anything (e.g. Minimum Viable Product as I wrote in this blog) they like, and it doesn’t have to resemble anything promised and which you backed. Which means that everything you see here in the stretch goals – and which you backed – is now meaningless. Those concept ships which have yet to be modeled, let alone flight ready? They don’t have to create them
    2. They are under no obligation to deliver anything – like ever
    3. You are not entitled to refunds – for any reason – like ever
    4. They can ban your account – for any reason – delete it, and not refund you
    5. If you buy an account and they find out, they can terminate the account and not refund you. This is essentially to kill the Grey market (Star Citizen trades has now been removed from the Reddit subs), prevent people from buying accounts and/or holding CIG accountable etc
    6. The disparaging CS tagging (1, 2) that occurred just this week, gives rise to how they were seeking to identify backers outside of their website/services, in order to identify their accounts and terminate them – without cause (other than because you were a dissenter)
    7. They no longer owe backers any financial accountability for where the money went. This was one of the key points they used as a carrot during this funding. That, and the ability to do refunds. Both have now been removed.
    8. There is no release date for anything. The 18 month (which was previous 12 months in prior ToS revisions) time frame to deliver following the original Nov 2014 date, has been removed
    9. The new ToS is an agreement with RSI and not CIG as before. Considering that they have a bunch of corporated entities associated with this, the implications of this change are not yet clear to me. UPDATE: After speaking with my attorneys, we view this move as an attempt to shift liability (lawsuits, creditors, investors etc) from CIG, and to the subsidiary (RSI). This is a common tactic used when businesses are setup. In fact, it clearly explains all these entities associated with this project. So when this project collapses – as I am certain that it will, seeing as they can’t deliver it as promised – CIG (which is the parent) will be shielded from the lawsuits and liabilites of RSI. However, according to the law, in cases where fraud is uncovered, there is no such protection.
    10. They say you agree not to sue them – like ever

    In the meantime, if you ever want legal recourse, do NOT download the 2.4 patch and do NOT do ANYTHING on their site and/or services in which you are required to agree to this new ToS. The only way you are able to give expressed consent, is if you download the 2.4 game launcher and press the AGREE button. Visiting the website, sending them emails, opening support tickets etc do not convey consent.

    TO BE CLEAR: This new ToS only applies to i) new backers from this date forward who download the game and agree to the new ToS ii) existing backers who are presented (e.g. in the game launcher) with the new ToS, and which they have to agree to

    Since July 2015, I have been making a lot of noise about the ToS (which they have changed many times to suit their actions) and the fact that RSI/CIG are required to provide refunds and financial accountability to backers for failure to deliver the promised game, 18 months from the expiration Feb 2015 ToS v1.2. Those two clauses triggered on May 31st, 2016. And instead of abiding by them, they decided to create a new ToS which not only removes those clauses, but it also strips even more rights from backers who have thus far given them $115 million. A lot of Shitizens said I was wrong about the ToS interpretation, that I didn’t understand it, blah, blah, blah. Yet, with the latest 2.4 patch disaster hurriedly pushed to live (conveniently ahead of E3 which they recently backed out of attending), they have done precisely as I said and expected that they would.

    This is CIG. There’s always more; and it’s always worse.


    UPDATE 16/05/24: Sources are telling me that a new ToS revision is in the works and will be shoved through either in the upcoming public release of 2.4 or thereafter. If you ever hope to get financial accountability or refunds – two of the key provisions of the current ToS v1.2 – do not agree to it. On June 1st, backers have the legal right to both a refund and financial accountability as promised.

    Make no mistake, several things are in the works, and there are going to be legal ramifications – including the complete decimation of the arbitration clause introduced in ToS 1.1 by people who never agreed to that ToS revision.


    Everyone knows by now that since the shoddy and premature release of Star Citizen (aka Persistent Universe) v2.0 in Dec 2015, they’re now claiming that it is substantial update, so they’re refusing refunds.

    Below are all the different ToS revisions since the start of this project. The Kickstarter ToS would be active from 12-10-18 to 12-11-19 when the campaign started and ended there.

    12-09-13 // Original version from RSI website before they moved the campaign to Kickstarter. No arbitration clause.

    13-08-13 // v1.0, No arbitration clause. 

    13-08-29 // v1.1, Arbitration clause appears in VIII

    15-02-01 // v1.2, Arbitration clause appears in XXII

    NOTE: If you pledged on Kickstarter, then you are subject to their ToS, as well as the RSI ToS which was active after the campaign ended and you had to access their site to create your citizen account.

    According to their  ToS v1.1 of 08/29/13 they said if they failed to deliver within 12 months of Nov 2014 (the original Kickstarter estimated delivery date), they would issue refunds. At the time, this non-delivery period would kick in during Nov 2015.

    IV. Charges & Billing
    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.

    Since that time, having already i) missed the Nov 2014 delivery date and ii) embarked on the increased scope (aka “vision 2.0”), thus extending the delivery date for the project, they surreptitiously made another changed in ToS v1.2 of 02/01/15 (which remains the current one on their website). The previous section was moved; and now reads:

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges
    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date communicated to you on the Website.  However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you within eighteen (18) months after the estimated delivery date.

    And in the current ToS, here is a key section that ties into the above:

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges
    For the avoidance of doubt, in consideration of RSI’s good faith efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Game with the funds raised, you agree that any Pledge amounts applied against the Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not RSI is able to complete and deliver the Game and/or the pledge items. In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost. In consideration of the promises by RSI hereunder, you agree that you shall irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any Pledge that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost in accordance with the above.

    The trigger in ToS v1.2 which will require (they won’t do it voluntarily) them to provide refunds and a full accounting, will expire 18 months from when they promised the project to be delivered on Nov 2014. It was set to expire in Nov 2015 as per the previous ToS. Then they extended it from 12 to 18 months. So the new expiration date is May 31, 2016 depending on when you backed the game and agreed to the ToS.

    However, it doesn’t matter when you backed the project; as long as you accessed their services (game, forum) and agreed to the ToS v1.2 revision when presented, you are subject to it. All previous versions would then be null and void. However, if you NEVER accessed their systems, and thus never agreed to ToS v1.2, then you are not only due a refund, but also due a full accounting as per the previous ToS versions.

    When it comes to dates…

    In the case of Kickstarter, it means the Nov 2014 date posted in the campaign.

    In the case of the original 2012 CIG website, it means the same as above.

    In the case of the CIG website, it means the dates such as this

    In this video interview from 2012 around the 8:50 mark, he again states that the game was two years out

    [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGE0_WSHGHc[/youtube]

    Gary Whitta:

    Chris thanks for joining us and seriously, congratulations on this tremendously successful funding effort, but I guess really now this is just the beginning of the actual difficult part which is building the game, when are we actually gonna see this thing?

    Chris Roberts:

    Ehh, well the… the… the FULL FINAL GAME will be approximately TWO YEARS from now but ahm, one of the advantages and I think the same is true on David’s Elite if… if you BACK IT EARLY, you know, besides being part of the COMMUNITY and the DISCUSSION, ah, and… and having your voice heard and seeing sort of what’s happening in the background so, you know I… we’re going to ah… you know, instead… we don’t have a PUBLISHER but you know what, we’re gonna TREAT OUR BACKERS the same way we would a PUBLISHER so when we get to a MILESTONE we’re gonna give them a SHOW AND TELL and all the STUFF and personally I’d rather do that to them than a publisher because I’m showing it to a hundred thousand people that really care about this and get EXCITED by it and so that’s kinda cool, but the other thing that you’ll be able to do is PLAY, ah, sort of the EARLY BUILDS and the way I’m… the way I’m sort of STRUCTURING is I’m trying to, ah… test out components of this overall bigger UNIVERSE along the way so I don’t just drop everything all at once so in TWELVE MONTHS TIME you’ll be able to play the SINGLE PLAYER… ah I mean sorry, sorry… the MULTIPLAYER DOGFIGHTING ALPHA which won’t be the full PERSISTENT UNIVERSE and it won’t be the single player game, but it WILL BE basically all the ships that you’ve PLEDGED FOR, think of it more like WORLD OF TANKS… and we’re gonna use that to ah… BALANCE THE COMBAT, uhm… you know, FINE TUNE it with the help of the community, and ah… try and see you know, exactly STRESS TEST how many people we can get in an instance at any one time and then, ah, you know… about SIX TO TEN MONTHS after that we’ll do a sort of BETA of the SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN which is SQUADRON 42 and then finally the FULL PERSISTENT UNIVERSE BETA to sort of ah, you know… gonna be about TWENTY MONTHS OR SO AFTER NOW and the LIVE RELEASE SHOULD BE ABOUT TWENTY FOUR MONTHS… but of course you know, there… it… there may be plus or minus a month here… well not minus… plus a month or so, on that… on the bigger thing at the end… but I’m PRETTY CONFIDENT about the DOGFIGHTING ALPHA IN TWELVE MONTHS

    SUMMARY:

    Hangar module <— released Aug 29th, 2013

    Dogfighting (aka Arena Commander) module Dec 2013 <— alpha released June 4, 2014

    Star Marine (full blown FPS module) <— canceled

    Social/Planetside module <— alpha released Aug 30th, 2015

    Persistent Universe Beta by August 2014 <— alpha released Dec 11, 2015 with 1 star system & 1 planet – which you can’t fly to

    Squadron 42 <— no show

    Full Final Game live release by Dec 2014 <— now 18th months past due, and with barely 10% of the promised features implemented

Viewing 27 replies - 65 through 91 (of 91 total)
  • Author
    Replies
  • #3596
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Sunk Cost Fallacy, Cognitive Dissonance, Fanaticism

     

    #3595
    Sean Tomlinson
    Sean Tomlinson
    Participant

    I mean, seriously, if they can’t even produce anything close to a game based on the timeline THEY themselves supplied, I am not sure how anyone could expect anything else from the company.

    #3594
    Sean Tomlinson
    Sean Tomlinson
    Participant

    I know that cat from somewhere.

     

    Hmmmmm…

     

    On a more serious note, given the video recordings of Chris showing WAY past missed deadlines, I still can NOT grok how these folks can keep defending CIG…

    #3580
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    For the satisfaction of the ToS promises, in addition to the above, CIG has provided numerous dates for the delivery of Star Citizen. One of them is the PAX East presentation in Mar 2015.

    [YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8BL8gXjc54[/YOUTUBE]

    And still on the game’s community page:

    #3462
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    WARNING

    The current ToS 1.2 expires on May 31st. If you want a refund, do NOT agree to the new one. Sources say they may change it; hence the reason they released 2.4 prematurely to the standard (from Evocati) PTU, and are now inviting more people (e.g. those who subscribed) than before. The issue is that if they change it, and you login to the site, you will need to agree to it, and thus be bound by whatever new one they come up with.

    So watch out for this!

     

    #3463
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    The Nov calendar date count-down has nothing to do with a lawsuit being filed.

    It had to do with the month-end expiration of the ToS v1.1 of 08/29/13  which I documented in my The Long Con blog post and which The Escapist article also covered.

    ToS v1.1 of 08/29/13

    IV. Charges & Billing

    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.

    ToS v1.2 of 02/01/15

    VII. Fundraising & Pledges

    RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date communicated to you on the Website.  However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you within eighteen (18) months after the estimated delivery date.

    This TOS is material and key to legal action. For those of you who don’t understand the process, lawsuits are not the sort of thing you just file on a whim. They are not fun for anyone involved in them.

    And you can’t threaten it, then not file because you can get sued for that!

    Regardless of how many causes of action you list, once you do file it, the other side has thirty days to respond. Once they do, you’re off to the races.

    And once that race starts, the attorneys start picking apart the causes of action in an attempt to get the whole thing tossed. And in their response, depending on the insanity levels, they get to file a counter-suit as well if they want.

    Each of the “causes of action” that gets tossed by the judge, means an award of fees to the side that got it tossed. It’s can be demoralizing to some extent. Especially if the judge tosses a key cause of action and upon which the merits of the case hinges.

    And in responding to their responses to the lawsuit, you now also get to respond to their counter-suit (if any) and try to get them tossed as well.

    It’s a dance.

    And an expensive one depending on how much useless time wasting shit you have to fight. Which is why we anticipated spending around $100K by discovery. Assuming the case even goes that far and doesn’t get settled especially if the liability insurance companies get involved in the fray.

    Given that we fully expect them to rightfully defend against any lawsuit, I am resigned to the fact that it could cost well over $250K by discovery. And I have no problems with that because I believe that what I’m doing is right and just. When they made this personal back in July, then singled me out, they cast the first stone and signaled that they did in fact have something to hide. Here we are.

    Them suing me is an inconsequential non-issue for me financially because i) they have no leg to stand on any of that ii) anti-SLAAP is a real deterrent; esp here in FL iii) I have robust liability insurance for that; and the best that money can buy.

    And Chris Robert’s insane diatribe against me and The Escapist in early October has caused a massive legal nightmare for them in terms of the litany of causes of action that it contains and which weren’t even a factor prior to him writing that.

    #3473
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    In the case of Kickstarter, it means the Nov 2014 date posted in the campaign.

    In the case of the original 2012 CIG website, it means the same as above.

    In the case of the CIG website, it means the dates such as this

    #3472
    Stan Porky
    Stan Porky
    Participant

    Yes !

    I just won a court case I brought (in an unrelated area to game development) but you are absolutely right on all cost and time and aggro involved.

    One has to be a thorough and persistent bastard but when you know you are right and can hold on to the end there is only ever going to be one outcome.  A bit of prior experience goes a very long way in helping you make sensible decisions on what is going to happen vs what you imagine the process involves.

     

     

    #3471
    Redrick
    Redrick
    Participant

    “delivery date communicated to you on the Website…”

    What does it mean?

    #1496
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Thanks. We’re still trying to figure out why buying from a game company, ends up being refunded by another media company (owned by Ortwin, one of the co-founders) that has nothing to do with the project.

    #2807
    Simon Bullock
    simonbull
    Participant

    [quote quote=1479]ToS v1.1 of 08/29/13 IV. Charges & Billing “RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.”[/quote]

     

    THIS SAYS IT ALL    CitizenCon 2016  SHOULD READ  CONSUMERCON    VERY APT NAME

    #3123
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    That’s right I had made a mix march-may . What I don’t get is what would refrain them to change the ToS again and set a new release date whenever they like? wait, the E.L.E. ?
    Ok so they ‘ll have no choice but to force a commercial release before the end of May , wich would explain the MVP fiasco.

    And fits perfectly with this lol :


    So we are now right before the ChumpRun point.
    Final Act has begun playing.

    #2877
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=2876]Derek, since we have passed the date of march the 31st and the 18 months time, shouldn’t the refund option be back in the loop by default? It is clear anyone can demonstrate with CIG own words that they have not fullfill their own claims. I mean it would be in their best interest to give a positive response because from now on they can’t go very far. Also this in their ToS : “Any taxes paid, such as VAT, are not refundable beyond 30 (thirty) days after the purchase.” Yeah well , what VAT? isn’t that supposed to apply on finnished products? this line is a fraud in itself. Their atual ToS anyway is still the same legal mess joke. [/quote]

    Going by the Nov 2014 ship date, the 18 month shift would be to May 31st. Thus far, they haven’t change the ToS.

    #2876
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    Derek, since we have passed the date of march the 31st and the 18 months time, shouldn’t the refund option be back in the loop by default? It is clear anyone can demonstrate with CIG own words that they have not fullfill their own claims. I mean it would be in their best interest to give a positive response because from now on they can’t go very far.
    Also this in their ToS : “Any taxes paid, such as VAT, are not refundable beyond 30 (thirty) days after the purchase.” Yeah well , what VAT? isn’t that supposed to apply on finnished products? this line is a fraud in itself. Their atual ToS anyway is still the same legal mess joke.

    #2875
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Here is a refund email that someone (he spent over $2,500) sent them before doing a chargeback.

    ===================
    I appreciate that you are taking the time to make a personal response. I also appreciate that you have given these requests consideration in the past- that consideration and the fact that you followed up shortly afterwards with a your Alpha release is what prompted me to put money back in. Unfortunately the company has failed to live up to that standard in the months since, releasing virtually no further improvements and refusing to speak to release dates. The latest indication by Chris Roberts that he no longer intends to produce a significant portion of the product despite having sold it as being nearly out the door for the entirety of the last year is my final straw (http://www.informationredux.com/index.php/2016/01/25/star-citizens-star-marine-module-officially-cancelled/
    ). There is nothing fraudulent about filing a chargeback claim in this case. Shall we go over the reasons?

    Valid chargeback reasons:

    Non-receipt of information.
    Fraud.
    Authorization error.
    Processing error.
    Canceled / returned merchandise.
    Non-receipt of goods or services.

    1) Services not provided or merchandise not received
    1a) The pack that I am pledged for, the Armada pack, includes a copy of Squadron 42 for digital download and a copy of the Star Citizen persistent universe. Squadron 42’s initial release date was somewhere in 2014. Citations:
    i) Interview with CEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFCfRK4e6Y&t=1187s
    ii) Article from a separate interview with CEO: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/883/feature/7539/Star-Citizen-E3-2013-Chatting-Star-Citizen-with-Chris-Roberts.html

    1b) Somehow that release date has slipped and slipped again. In 2014, you said 2016. Citations:
    i) Producer Eric Peterson and Phil Meller discussing the release date on your channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllp5o5Qkq0&t=23m58s
    ii) Erin Roberts in an interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllp5o5Qkq0&t=23m58s

    1c) Now you will not even give release dates. Judging by what you have done with the Star Marine section of the game, where your CEO extremely dishonestly insisted that it was not cancelled (Citation i), and multiple representatives of your company maintained that party line (Citation ii), until a few days ago when it was announced that what has been released in your alpha test build was the intended product all along- based on this, it is incredibly difficult to believe that you have any intention of delivering the other products that you sold to me.
    i) “In January (2014), Roberts said that Star Marine would be arriving in the spring. The module was delayed and is now slated to arrive some time in the next few weeks. At the time of the delay, earlier this year, Roberts had no new release date and several outlets, including Polygon, reported it as being “delayed indefinitely,” something at which the studio bristled.” http://www.polygon.com/features/2015/8/31/9211969/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-star-citizen
    ii) The saga of Star Marine: http://www.justagamemode.com/

    1d) I cannot link you the sales description of the Armada Pack because you have actually removed it from your website(Citation i). However, according to the version attached to my account, it should come with the following ships in-game: Gladius, Super Hornet, Starfarer Gemini, Vanguard, Idris-P Frigate, Retaliator, Constellation, Freelancer MIS. Not only are two of those ships, whose individual values total well over $1000, still in production after three years, but the ships that you have provided are non-functional in almost every way. I would not bring this up except you are citing the current state of the game as grounds for refusing refunds, so I am assuming you expect that you have satisfied the terms of your sale. The turrets do not work (Citation ii), the stations do not work (Citation iii), and the game itself is practically non-functional in its current state (Citations iv, v, vi). Since you announce no dates and have issued no significant improvements since the launch of the game last year I can only assume that the current unacceptable state is your intended release. The merchandise you have delivered is in unacceptable condition and is not remotely what you promised during sale.

    i) Armada Pack 404s- https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Armada-Pack
    ii) Current gameplay in Retaliator and Constellation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONW_ciiHym8
    iii) Current gameplay: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIqrn49mZ5c)
    iv) Current gameplay- (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJfh3r7nq9o)
    v) Current gameplay- (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go1oFvxUoeI)
    vi) Current gameplay- (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55HXtqdiqsA)

    I also find it interesting that not even 5 months ago you were publicly giving full refunds (http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/20/9180067/star-citizen-backers-claiming-refunds-are-getting-their-money-back) but now feel that you delivered sufficient content to warrant their denial, per your letter above, which appears to be boilerplate: (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3zb4iv/refund_denied/)

    In any case- thank you for your time. I will now pursue a chargeback.

     

    #1569
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    When you’ve either wasted or squandered money, then run out of time, you have no choice but to downsize.

    #1567
    MDrake SC
    MDrake SC
    Participant

    The funny thing is that CIG will not give refunds to the people that want them. I’ve lost track of how long my refund ticket has gone nowhere. Looks to me CIG wasted a huge amount of money. They wouldn’t have to restructure or downsize if they were good on finances.

    When game companies downsize, it is near the end. It is called “going gold” or “gone gold”. Downsizing without a finished flight model in Arena Commander? Downsizing without releasing Star Marine in any form? Downsizing without the ability for people to play pirate swarm? Downsizing without even releasing 5 out of 50 missions for Squadron 42?

    CIG is cutting itself up. In public.

    #1565

    Anonymous

    The funny thing is, you guys will continue to find dirt to throw even once the game is finished. It’s too bad no objectivity can be found. The whole thing has become so polarized and full of hate, it is impossible to be neutral. As for quotes, well, obviously you are not reading your favorite trolls own blogs. And no, I don’t believe he has that power. Nor did I say I think he does. But he did declare his intention, and then he acts all butthurt when people get mad at him.

    #1503
    Alex Grncarovski
    Alex Grncarovski
    Participant

    lol, well the fanboys need SOMEONE to blame for it, it sure as hell can’t be Roberts now can it? He’s done no wrong apparently.

    #1502
    Lir Big
    lir big
    Participant

    Hello Klaus Reims.

    Ah he said so? quotes plz.
    We obviously haven’t read from the same guy.
    Star Citizen doesn’t need Derek Smart for annihilation, since CIG is already doing it quite pretty well.
    You really believe one guy can destroy a 90m legit company? If you do , then something,somewhere, is going wrong, don’t you think?

    #1500

    Anonymous

    It doesn’t look like you (Derek) have *anyone’s* best interest at heart as you repeatedly claim.

    Just cause

    my ass! You have said multiple times that you will DESTROY THE GAME. You even said it again in your latest blurb. And then you wonder why people get mad at you.

    #1495
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    Yeah, they are completely backlogged. I’ve heard from people who are only just getting their refunds now, after over a month.

    The sad thing is that they made another $4m in Nov from mostly whales. And funding is down in 2015 year on year. So that money is really just operating expenses for about a month or so. With the anniversary sales coming up, we’ll have to wait and see how it plays out in the long term but 2016 is going to be the make or break year.

    #1488
    Alex Grncarovski
    Alex Grncarovski
    Participant

    Still waiting on my refund…. I thought it was cute when they asked “The amount of refund expected”…

    #1490
    MDrake SC
    MDrake SC
    Participant

    Customer service is completely backlogged and completionists like Admiral cannot even melt their Idris P’s for credit.

    They either have very few customer service folks left after firing them or they cannot afford to hire experienced ones. I have noticed that quite a few of these folks are original backers. Trading wage for passion is my guess.

    I remember service used to be based in Santa Monica. Not sure if that is still true or not.

    Fun times ahead as a few more citizens wake up. Word is spreading, and Derek is doing something that the majority do not have the knowledge, contacts or resources to pursue.

    #1485
    Dsmart
    dsmart
    Keymaster

    November is going to be a very interesting month. Aside from the fact that it’s apparently the anniversary of the project.

    We don’t have any reason to believe that they will be comply, let alone compromise outside of legal action. If that were ever in the cards, we wouldn’t be here having this discussion three months later.

    If you looked at the sequence of events since July, starting from how they singled me out, handled my refund, their responses to our legal letters, their baseless legal threats at The Escapist, Chris’s diatribe etc, you see ego and wanton incompetence at play.

    Notwithstanding the fact that Chris foolishly believes that this is me i) not liking him, as per some perceived made-up ship from over two decades ago ii) wanting to kill the project our of jealousy (this ones hilarious)

    Only a complete idiot would even think that ONE MAN (me) is capable of killing a $90m project. But they want a villain and someone to blame, regardless of how things play out.

    Chris and co have routinely LIED to BACKERS since DAY ONE. That is a matter of FACT and not hyperbole. And there is no reason to believe that this will change.

    So no, I don’t believe that there will be any acceptable resolution outside of legal action that’s already been underway since Aug.

    Key components of any such resolution revolve around the three demands, which haven’t changed.

    1) Complete financial accounting for this project.

    2) A firm and fixed delivery date for this project.

    3) No questions asked refunds to those who request it. NOTE: Even though they have been doing refunds, we have emails from people showing that they are asking people whether they want a refund because of something that Derek Smart wrote or an article by The Escapist.

    #1487

    Anonymous

    Hi, Derek.

    I also requested a refund, and I finally got my money back too. It came from the mentioned “Twin Bros. GmbH” via PayPal.

    It took a friendly support ticket, two further answer emails and about two to three weeks’ time. Support was friendly all the time.

    They asked me

    · about my reasons (press articles or otherwise)

    · whether my decision was final,

    · whether I was aware that my account would be closed afterwards,

    · what amount I expected (this was a strange one; did they hope I missed a few bucks?).

    And they told me

    · that no gifted items or shipped physical goods could be refunded (including the Citizen Card),

    · that it could take one to two weeks until the money arrived.

    This is just a small update for those who seem to be stuck in the process. There’s hope! 🙂

    #1482
    Ivan Illich
    Ivan Illich
    Participant

    So the clock on the TOS runs out in 14 hrs approximately. I guess this is the lull before the storm.

    Aside from them meeting your demands is there anything else they(Roberts & co.)could do to come to an acceptable resolution?

    I guess I am asking is there any common middle ground that could be built upon?

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