Star Citizen - The E.L.E.

[Scruffpuff]

I think the safest criticism is that it's a legitimate enterprise that has devolved into something of a Ponzi scheme.  From Wikipedia:

"Ponzi schemes occasionally begin as legitimate businesses, until the business fails to achieve the returns expected. The business becomes a Ponzi scheme if it then continues under fraudulent terms. Whatever the initial situation, the perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."

AKA "We failed to build what we thought we could with your money because we're mind-bogglingly incompetent - please buy more ships so we can finish designing the ones earlier backers already paid for."

Unlike a Ponzi scheme, where the guys in charge at some point realize what they're doing, Chris Roberts is too stupid to understand even the most elementary principles of almost any subject imaginable.  As a result, you can't even really call this a Ponzi scheme - just an idiot burning other people's money.

[dsmart]

I suppose in the end it's an argument of semantics, but it seems like you guys don't actually know what the word 'scam' even means.
A con would involve the con man (Chris Roberts) gaining the trust of the mark (the backers) so that they give him a ton of money while he produces nothing in return leaving the backers holding nothing. At this point he's certainly got the 'ton of money' part, the difference being that he's actually producing something in return for the money.

Sorry, but no - that's actually not how a scam works or is defined. You can still run a scam, while delivering something. Heck, entire corporations have been shutdown, and people jailed, for running various scams.

And when you observe the "scam" part of what's going on, it's easy to see that it's basically (as I wrote in 4 blogs, complete with definitions) a "confidence" scam.

Why We All Fall for Con Artists
The Art of the Con
Catch me if you can: 10 of the world's greatest confidence tricks

[Padrepapp]

Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.

But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Hi Kyrt!

Could you please stop commenting? I think most of us come here for new information and for the newest dumb shit CIG have done to have a laugh.
 Every single comment of yours is the same, that You think it's not a scam. We get it. You can stop posting now, it was interesting for the first few times, but reading the same thing for 50 comments is now getting boring and tiring.
I come here to get something new, and I see that there are new posts, only to find out that it is always you with the same arguments for weeks now.

Please stop. We heard you. We get your opinion. Make a blog or something, because for me you are becoming an annoying spam on a site I like to visit.

[Kyrt]

Sorry, but no - that's actually not how a scam works or is defined. You can still run a scam, while delivering something. Heck, entire corporations have been shutdown, and people jailed, for running various scams.

And when you observe the "scam" part of what's going on, it's easy to see that it's basically (as I wrote in 4 blogs, complete with definitions) a "confidence" scam.

Why We All Fall for Con Artists
The Art of the Con
Catch me if you can: 10 of the world's greatest confidence tricks

Those show fraud and cons and fakes.

Here....we have CIG asking people for money to develop a game. In return, they are promised that certain ships and equipment will be made available to them when the game is released.

The backers expect the ship, and they expect the money to be used to fund CIG and develop the game.

There is no guarantee the game will be any good.
There is no guarantee the game will ever be released.
And I'm not personally keen on this model because it removes a lit of oversight and accountability, removes the need to publish the game and even disincentivizes release by providing a revenue stream that can exist only while the game is in development.

But CIG and Chris Roberts do appear to be spending the money on funding and developing the game. 

We are getting demos. We are getting new features added.  We are seeing the game getting fleshed out.....slowly, but it IS being fleshed out.

What is it exactly that makes all this a scam?

The crowdfunding exercise is a negative IMO....but there is no sign the money is being used for other purposes.
Deadlines are being missed but that can hardly be said to be unusual or unique.
Money has been wasted and bad decisions have been made but that isn't what makes a scam.

A scam involves fraud. Involves conning the people involved.

Here....where is the fraud? While CIG keep missing deadlines, they do appear to be investing in game development and do appear intent on developing and releasing the game when it is ready.

Which is what the money is for?

Is there evidence money has been diverted away? Used for purposes other than game development? 

CIG might have spent the money foolishly. It might have done what so many have done when they came into a windfall and gone on a spending spree.

But all said and done....none of that makes what CIG are doing a scam, a fraud or a con.

They are taking money for a purpose....development of Star Citizen...and appear to be using it for that purpose. You might disagree with what and how the money has been spent....but again, not a scam.

It is, IMO, foolish of people to hand over such huge amounts of money for a game. Especially when there is no guarantee the game will be released, let alone good. But it isn't as if they don't know that.

Withh that CIG and Chris Roberts CAN be criticised for, with all the mistakes and bad decisions they have made, with the lack of progress snd their continued inability to meet deadlines, there is no need to fight a battle over made up charges that the entire thing is nothing but a scam.

People pledge money to fund development of the game.
In return...CIG provides them with a ship for use in the game and have developed the game.

Backers ARE getting what they donated towards.

CIGs problem is that what they are working on now has grown far beyond what they initially planned. Their initial timetable is kaput and they have moved onto a different vision. Delivery is taking much longer to achieve than planned.

But none of that makes this a scam.

Hold CIG to account for the mistakes and bad decisions they have made and will make. There is enough there withoug inventing charges of a scam.

[dsmart]

We are getting demos. We are getting new features added.  We are seeing the game getting fleshed out.....slowly, but it IS being fleshed out.

What is it exactly that makes all this a scam?

Yeah uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that.

ps: I think you've given yourself away these past few posts. For someone who claimed to not have any money invested in the game, I think you let your ego get the better of sound judgement. And as a result, you've outed yourself. LOL!! 

[Kyrt]

Yeah uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that.

ps: I think you've given yourself away these past few posts. For someone who claimed to not have any money invested in the game, I think you let your ego get the better of sound judgement. And as a result, you've outed yourself. LOL!! 

I don't. Why should I? IMO, anyone paying hundreds of dollars for a $60 game is foolish and wasting their money.

But....so what?

CIG has made plenty of bad decisions.
CIG has wasted a good oart of the money they have raised.
CIG should be making quicker progress than they have demonstrated and that they haven't indicates problems and bad management.

There is plenty to lambast them for.

Plenty.

But....you go around criticising them that they'll never release the game they pitched. And that is true. They won't They admit that. The game they want to release is bigger and better....or do they say.

But you don't criticise them for that change...you just go around saying they'll never release the game they promised. But CIG aren't hiding that fact. The backers already know this.  But you keep making this out to be some great big secret...some huge revelation or shocker.

The only thing you are doing is hurting your own credibility by making it seem as if you are creating a scandal out of nothing. I think CIG needs someone like you to hold them to account....but this type of charge doesn't help.

Nor does the charges of this being a scam.

CIG ask for backers to invest in return for a ship.
CIG are using the money to develop the game. Your own assertions seem to indicatte that the money has been spent on game development. You just seem to think they are running on fumes. That CIG have spent all their money and are in a state of living hand to mouth.

If that were so, you might have a case for bad management but not fraud.

As it is...CIG might have a buffer of up to $70 million left, although its likely less. But you keep saying this is a scam. That even if they started out developing the game, that it has devolved into a scam

And the reasoning you seem to provide is the crowdfunding scheme and lack of results.

You might like talking down 2.6...but it is out. There is plenty to criticise...but it is an Alpha release and it is out. It was delayed....but it is out. It shows progress....it shows development is ongoing....it shows work is being done.

CIG took in about $35 million last year. With 400 devs, that's a wage bill of at least $20 million right there. And there'd be other costs on top of that.

CIG spent time developing the tools they needed. Spent time working on the engine. Spent time working on the game modules. Spent time on ships. And so on.

Unless you want to make the argument that CIG aren't paying their staff, where the money raised is being spent is easy to see. Its being spent on game development. On wages. On rent and power and equipment.

How is this a scam?

CIG has done plenty to be criticised about. So far, however, it doesn't appear as if fraud is one of those.

CIG could have had a game out years ago. We can see what other teams have been able to do with just a fraction of the money they have available.

Elite Dangerous apparently cost about $8million to develop in 2014 though others say it has grown to about £20million. No Mans Sky cost much less. But SWTOR needed $100-$200 million dollars.

CIG don't have a lot to show even for the money they have spent or the time they have devoted to the project. You can point to other games of similar scale doing more with less. You can even take Star Marine and point out some very impressive player created mods for other FPS games.

You can even see where some of the problems lie.....Star Citizen as promised could never be released by a publisher because it could never make its money back. The crowdfunding is allowing Star Citizen to have a budget that it could never justify to a publisher and as a result, CIG and CR has allowed its scope and complexity to grow.

But none of that is scamming the backers.

So sure...keep pointing out everything wrong with Star Citizen. There is plenty. But charges of a scam hurt only your credibility and give CIG the reason they need to ignore you.

[Darklegend1]

well kyrt i understand u believe in CIG and doesnt want to be proved wrong but listen to this

I agree with you that star citizen was started not as a scam but their intentions were pure in beginning. But as you yrself admit that bcoz of mishandling of cash, mis management and mistakes and over expenditure on unwanted merchandise CIG burned the cash and didnt achieve their set goals(for star citizen) that they hoped to achieve. They failed miserably.

This is the time when this started to tilt in scam region. They wanted money to make the game that they should have in their hands by now. so they started selling more shit jpeg. The community supported them and is still supporting them.

Right now if you see we dont even have an entire system out of the 100+ systems promised and just dont make me start on other things.

I became a backer on i think may 2016 after seeing star citizen ad on internet somewhere i knew the game from kickstarter 2012 but seeing a "coming 2016" i was superhyped and gave them 60$. At that time i very well knew that this date is not for the PU but for sq 42 but then also i backed coz i saw i will have something in next six months to play.

what i have is ..... well nothing worth mentioning.

so was i scammed? ... some would say yes and some might say no as game development can have unforeseeable delays.

what i think:

1) delays can happen but delays of such magnitude where u postpone release from release date indefinitely doesnt happen!!!!

2) when they gave 2016 date they must have believed that right (if they didnt and just tricked me to hand them over 60$ its a scam) so a delay should have set them back by 3-4 months max(considering they were to release sq 42 in 2014)
but me as a backer still doesnt know when it will come.( A shame)

3)  For a game that was supposed to have released in 2014 then 2015 then  2016 doesnt even have a trailer till date (2017) And again i am not talking about PU just sq 42. (thats lame). they say they dont wanna give spoilers ...lol so every other game releases without trailers...hahaha :doh:. (also consider this that CR himself had told the plot of the game to everyone in an official interview. 

4) show tech demos and fool backers and run with their money. until backers stop giving them money they basically dont need to do much then to sit on their asses and do nothing.

5) after backer unrest they released game production schedule which is a joke in my opinion. they set deadlines and when they pass the deadlines they change the schedule again. if all people start making and reiterating schedules like this then trust me nobody in any trade will ever miss a deadline.

6) look at their site they are boasting they released the patch on time where as if they were honest they should have mentioned that their initial target date was 8 dec and they missed it by 21 or so days but they dont say that.
they should present facts and let the backer decide what to make out of it but they are obfuscating the facts.

7) when backers asked where is schedule for 3.0 they said it will be released once 2.6 is out. now 2.6 is out where is the updated schedule??? let me tell you before you say "THEY ARE ON LEAVE" ...

If they wanted to make us see the 3.0 schedule considering they have it, a simple timed event on server using script could trigger the page to be updated without human intervention but they didnt, let me tell you why.

they dont know how the community will react to them telling us that 3.0 will come in june 2017 or somewhere near and they dont want this uncertainty to hamper in any way to the money they can grab in this holiday season. thats why they are filling up wallets as long as they can.

so here am i a backer:
1) who was tricked by false advertising.
2) who is completely blind to how his money is being spent(no accountability)
3) who has been denied the right to get his money back (by their changed TOS)
4) who is told his money cant be given back as it has been invested in making game that is just a skeleton of what it should have been  and is being given no timeframe when he can expect to see the thing he paid for that was already supposed to be released...
5) who updated is computer components in hope that 2016 end is coming near and he should be prepared for star citizen.
6) who now realize that clowns are making the game who either cant accurately predict how long will it take them to release the next patch(let alone the game in its entirety) or they simply doesnt want to share so as to hide their incompetency and ultimately putting a stop to their easy stream of steady income being showed into their pockets by innocent backers who believe in their lies.

SO SIR IF YOU ASK ME I WAS SCAMMED.PERIOD

 Sorry for the long post would have preferred to post an image of a donkey with a carrot hanging in front of him by rider(where donkey = backer, carrot = SC, Rider = CIG) But wasnt able to find one so ...   :lesnick:

[Kyrt]

well kyrt i understand u believe in CIG and doesnt want to be proved wrong but listen to this

No. I simply object to people levelling charges of criminal behaviour without any evidence.

I have strong doubts CIG will release SC any time soon....or that it will be any good if it does. I would estimate at least three years and a 2019 release but even then, some of CIGs decisions leave me thinking the game will be wonderfully detailed, and not a lot of fun.

I can hope the game will be released within a reasonable timeframe...I can hope it will be good...I can hope it will be fun.

And if it is...I'll likely buy it.  But I'm not going to count on it. Whether you say CIG has been in full development mode only since 2013 when they set up Foundry 42 or say its been 5 years because of the development work that took place before Kickstarter or 4 years because only the eork after Kickstarter counts, a release is only possible if CIG manage to keep the backers happy and engaged.

And I think that the habit of overhyping the game and the practise of providing overly optimistic release dates while understandable to a degree is also counterproductive in that it leads to expectations CIG cannot meet and which will eventually alienate the backers.

I don't want to be wrong...because I like the idea of the game CIG are trying to create and I'd like to play that game. But I'm not going to cry if it never gets released or doesn't live up to the hype. I simply won't buy it.

This is the time when this started to tilt in scam region. They wanted money to make the game that they should have in their hands by now. so they started selling more shit jpeg. The community supported them and is still supporting them.

Even if you wanted to argue that they are running on fumes, that the buffer of up to $70 million that many think they have is essentially gone - and that argument is plausible - raising cash to continue development is not a scam.

The game might never be released....but the only question here is whether or not CIG are developing the game. CIG raised $35 million or so last year. Was any of it skimmed off or embezzled? Is Chris Roberts getting millions from backers with no intention of developing the game?

There is no sign of this. No evidence. He and CIG are raising money and that money is going exactly where it is supposed to be going.

Development of SC and S42.

Just how is this a scam? Where is the fraud?

Right now if you see we dont even have an entire system out of the 100+ systems promised and just dont make me start on other things.

One of the stretch goals of the project was to develop custom tools necessary to create the game and its environment. 
The goal was also to have 100 systems available on release. Not three years before. On release.

An argument can certainly be put forward that CIG should be more advanced in development than they currently are. That what is slated for v4.0 should have been out sooner. That CIG have skewed priorities.

That argument does not make this a scam.

CIG have done plenty that can be criticised. So far, deliberate fraud does not appear to be one of them.

1) delays can happen but delays of such magnitude where u postpone release from release date indefinitely doesnt happen!!!!

Unfortunately.....yes. Such delays do happen. SC and SQ42 aren't even the worst offenders.

Zelda BotW was supposed to be a Wii U launch title.  Its now going to be a Switch launch title. That game is from Nintendo. There are plenty of other examples.

4) show tech demos and fool backers and run with their money. until backers stop giving them money they basically dont need to do much then to sit on their asses and do nothing.

While generally true....CIG don't fool anyone. They are pretty upfront about what their demoes are.

5) after backer unrest they released game production schedule which is a joke in my opinion. they set deadlines and when they pass the deadlines they change the schedule again. if all people start making and reiterating schedules like this then trust me nobody in any trade will ever miss a deadline.

Yes. Its a bit of a joke. Its Alpha. Delays are both likely and certain. Its not unexpected that delays occur. Which is why they emphasised delays were likely.

they dont know how the community will react to them telling us that 3.0 will come in june 2017 or somewhere near and they dont want this uncertainty to hamper in any way to the money they can grab in this holiday season. thats why they are filling up wallets as long as they can.

Even assuming what you say is true...you are simply accusing them of acting like a business.

None of this equates to "scam".

so here am i a backer:
1) who was tricked by false advertising.

Yes. But delays aren't uncommon.

2) who is completely blind to how his money is being spent(no accountability)

Backers wanted the freedom that comes with not having a publisher.

3) who has been denied the right to get his money back (by their changed TOS)

And you still agreed to it. Even then, if you want your money back you might still have a shot depending on the legal situation where you live.

6) who now realize that clowns are making the game who either cant accurately predict how long will it take them to release the next patch(let alone the game in its entirety) or they simply doesnt want to share so as to hide their incompetency and ultimately putting a stop to their easy stream of steady income being showed into their pockets by innocent backers who believe in their lies.

There probably isn't any company in the world who can accurately predict what you want predicted. The deadlines are more of a "hope for the best".  As stated...other companies also have trouble meeting deadlines.

SO SIR IF YOU ASK ME I WAS SCAMMED.PERIOD

Because you invested in a game knowing that development was an uncertain process with no guarantees and did so knowing you wouldn't get your money back.

I have plenty of problems with what CIG are doing and I don't like their funding method. Not when it is used this way

But so far I don't see the scam. CIG have provided no release date for the game, are quite open about the potential for delay with Alphas, and their ToS and no refund policy was well discussed. You appear to have known all this....and still decided to invest in exchange for a digital asset.

[Motto]

Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.

But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Hi Kyrt!

Could you please stop commenting? I think most of us come here for new information and for the newest dumb shit CIG have done to have a laugh.
 Every single comment of yours is the same, that You think it's not a scam. We get it. You can stop posting now, it was interesting for the first few times, but reading the same thing for 50 comments is now getting boring and tiring.
I come here to get something new, and I see that there are new posts, only to find out that it is always you with the same arguments for weeks now.

Please stop. We heard you. We get your opinion. Make a blog or something, because for me you are becoming an annoying spam on a site I like to visit.

Amen to that. Please stop posting Kyrt about how this may or may not be a scam et cetera. Just sit back, relax and watch how this Star Citizen drama will run intself into the ground. That's what I'm here for.

[Kyrt]

Amen to that. Please stop posting Kyrt about how this may or may not be a scam et cetera. Just sit back, relax and watch how this Star Citizen drama will run intself into the ground. That's what I'm here for.

Why then not call on others to stop spreading the mythical charge that CIG and Chris Roberts are engaged in a massive scam?

You like the mud slinging? Levelling false charges at a company is entertaining?
Why not even question the need to call this a scam? CIG have made enough mistakes without the need to level such charges.

As it is, until Derek Smart sees fit to remove my posting privileges, I will continue to post. Sometimes I'll support CIG...and sometimes I'll support Derek Smart.

[Padrepapp]

Why then not call on others to stop spreading the mythical charge that CIG and Chris Roberts are engaged in a massive scam?

Derek Smart's narrative is that this is a scam, and a lot of people agree with him. And many don't.
But I think everyone visits the site to get information in the unique writing style of DS and to have a laugh on the forum. DS's article are great, because it is full of links, so you can look for yourself and decide for yourself.
Many people wirte what they think after reading the things DS came up with, but you write your own opinion 50 times. Sadly many people goes into an arguement with you, which makes the forum look like this:

Kyrt: intelligent comment.
Commenter1: argument
Kyrt: reaction
Commenter2: same or similar arguments
Kyrt: same or similar arguments
Commenter3: same or similar arguments
Kyrt: same or similar arguments

And repeat this for 50 comments. Its boring, annoying, tiring and unnecessary.

You like the mud slinging? Levelling false charges at a company is entertaining?
Why not even question the need to call this a scam? CIG have made enough mistakes without the need to level such charges.

I find the whole SC situation interesting and funny at the same time. With all the mud slinging and flase charges and amateur communication and development mistakes of CIG. The pressure does not come from Derek Smart, but their own inability to provide a game, or at least keep the backers informed properly.

As it is, until Derek Smart sees fit to remove my posting privileges, I will continue to post. Sometimes I'll support CIG...and sometimes I'll support Derek Smart.

Yeah, the only thing DS needs is a banned forum member, who did nothing wrong, just being utterly boring and annoying.
I know you CAN post here, I just asked that you notice yourself and take one for the community and not post another wall of text with the same arguments until you get a good writing style like DS. DS writes long articles, filled with information he already said many times, but the stlye and how he connects them to new information makes it interesting and fun to read.

I am not against fully articulated and intelligent arguments like what you do here. I am against reading that 50 times.

[Darklegend1]

For kyrt's sake..

Consider this example :

If i promise someone something and take a payment from them for making that thing in a said timeline. i cross well beyond the deadlines and still cant show the buyer any thing substantial and i start hiding facts,misrepresenting data, make myself impossible to reach or get an answer out of, give new deadlines and then miss them again and then keep hiding and even try to say i havent given any deadlines or simply say that was my goal but i never said i will or can achieve them. then i tell them that i wont give back your money also and stop giving new deadlines stating that i will not tell you when the product will come as i failed to achieve previous deadlines.

Now suppose by a miracle I somehow with god's help deliver the product the buyer will get what he paid for obviously many years after i originally pitched but then again i will state that i delivered what i took money for and feel happy.

But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

This is what CIG is doing.
and this is irrefutable.

Now kyrt if u cant see this to be the case then u need some medical attention. :psyduck: :psyduck:

[dsmart]

well kyrt i understand u believe in CIG and doesnt want to be proved wrong but listen to this

Oh really? That's your explanation? Weak.

Maybe you haven't been in society or the Internet for long enough to understand that you don't need evidence to posit or opine about something. The definitions of a scam are not open to interpretation. And the short list of examples that darklegend1 posted above, are just the tip of the iceberg.

In fact, I'll go one step further and give the most visible and 100% provable evidence of a scam: the changing of the ToS at the time when the games were supposed to have been released, and two key conditions (refunds, financial accountability) were to trigger. Then they made it worse, in that ToS change by indicating that they no longer have to do any of those two things, let alone deliver a game.

That's a scam. That's how that works.

And for as much as they hate me, I have absolutely no qualms about accusing them of criminal conduct because it's all based on 100% provable actions and which are what State and Fed officials, as well as irate backers who end up suing, are going to citing soon enough.

And I wrote an entire blog (The Refund Debacle) about this specific aspect which, btw, State and Fed officials appear to agree with.

But so far I don't see the scam. CIG have provided no release date for the game, are quite open about the potential for delay with Alphas, and their ToS and no refund policy was well discussed. You appear to have known all this....and still decided to invest in exchange for a digital asset.

Shirley you jest. Are you serious right now?

1) false. the release date was Nov 2014, with a 12, then 18 month delay allowance. it's now Jan 2017.

2) false. if they were, they won't be making schedules and missing them - repeatedly. heck even 2.6 has to be gutted so they could release the awful Star Marine

3) discussing the ToS is meaningless as it doesn't take away the fact that they stripped backers of promises and assurances they previously had in prior ToS versions

Your posts are 100% evidence that you're either a backer or a Shillizen, because your posts have become progressively supportive of what CIG/RSI have done, even as people point them out, call you out on them etc. But that's OK because you're engaging in discourse and providing an endless stream of lols; so we don't mind. Do carry on.

ps:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4965687&viewfull=1#post4965687

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4965927&viewfull=1#post4965927

[dsmart]

These are all immaterial because what's in the works completely eclipses all of the above (whether true or not).

[dsmart]

Moved to concern

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/361830/cig-freaking-nailed-it-awesome-cr-and-cig