Star Citizen - The E.L.E.

[mackjazno]

More at least.

To be blunt - that is a fantasy. CIG is bringing in double what other crowdfunding games are generating - combined. While I have qualms about the model, I can't argue with its success.

$35 million in 2016 was a marvellous result and one not matched by the marketing professionals at the other companies. CIGs marketing is doing something right to generate that amount of cash for the company, and Sandi is head of marketing. You might think she is unqualified, you might think she is a figurehead, you might think she does nothing but buy designer handbags all day but the simple fact remains...CIG achieved over $35 million of funding in 2016 and a large part of that is due to marketing.

CIG is generating a huge amount of cash for development already. CIG is very successful in this area. Arguing that anyone else should have been capable of generating even more - even when other companies fail to come close - is petty.

Agreed. And it's part of the problem.  But it's very real for lots of people still.  CIG upset many early backers because it's not their game anymore.  No more special snowflakes.  But from a marketing perspective they set themselves up for failure and disappointment.  They aren't going out to scale back the dreamers rather just letting them dream on.  Sometimes indirectly answering questions but mostly just saying "eventually" for whatever mechanic they ask about.

Take a peek at the Subscriber forum or the Concierge forum if you can stand it.   Glorious topics like "Pallet Loader for My Caterpillar".  All in the name of "immersion".  In a few posts, it went from a manual pallet jack, to a forklift to wishing for an Alien 2 style mech.  And don't forget, "grabby hands" will solve all.   When I think of a repeat gameplay mechanic, I don't quite think manually loading cargo for my Freelancer is going to be "fun".  More realistic?

But that's really marketing's job to bring on the hype and get new people to pre-order and the whales to continue throwing money at it..  Not to crush dreams.  The problem here is that the expectations just can not meet reality here.  It's been around as long as video games have been around.  I guess it is easier just to let people think what they want to rather than scale back expectations.  And the old "it's only pre-alpha" excuse. 

[Darklegend1]

IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.

No....I think he has simply been out of the business so long that he still hasn't adjusted to the developments times and costs of current games development. As a result, he cobtinually underestimates both.

Being wrong is not the same as being deceitful.

so in a nutshell you are saying CR IS AN INNOCENT MORON!!!!

[dsmart]

Will the game be released as they originally pitched? No - it won't. And they've admitted that. I don't see why you have to keep harping on about it. Would it have been better if they'd resisted feature creep, if they'd released the game and then grew it out from there? Arguably...yes. But that the game as pitched won't be delivered is of no interest to anyone. The question is whether the game they are promising NOW will be delivered.

Why do you care? Does it somehow trigger you? If so, how and why?

Is this a scam? As far as I can see...there has been mismanagement. I can even accept a lot of money, time and resources has been wasted. But it also appears that they are putting in an honest effort to develop the game. I think they've made a lot of bad decisions and they are overly reliant on the crowdfunding model....but a scam? An attempt to defraud the backers? No. Do I expect CIG to fold suddenly, and Chris Roberts to throw his hands up and say "Nice while it lasted"? No, it could happen but so far, no sign of it.

Oh, and somehow that means they're not running a scam? Are you serious right now? You do realize that many multi-national and multi-million scams were run by and within the confines of major corporations, right?

Have they run out of money? So far, they are continuing to develop the game. We've not had word anyone is not getting paid. The backers are still throwing money at CIG - foolishly IMO, but it ain't my money. I could believe an argument that a lot of money has been spent foolishly, or wasted. But you've been spinning this lien about CIG running out of money for quite some time now, and they are still in business, and still spending. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong...but it doesn't convince me you are right either.

How does people not getting paid, amount to them running out of money to complete the game? Please explain.

As to the money side, clearly the longer it takes, the more they will need consistent funding. And all the tricks they have pulled in the name of raising funds, are testament to how they are scamming backers in order to continue operations.

And if they weren't pulling those stunts to raise money, how exactly would they still be in operation despite nowhere near completing either of the two games?

Again: Back when myself and several sources (most who spoke to the media) indicated that they were running out of money; it was accurate based on the information at hand. That was a year ago. And during 2016, they have done a litany of unscrupulous (e.g. cash discounts, touting non-existent features, creating demos to show non-existent progress etc) things all in the name of raising money - which is precisely how they ended up still being around even with no game being released.

From reports, SWTOR took an established developer 6 years to develop, used 800 developers across 4 studios and cost $200 million
From reports, GTA5 took an established developer 5 years to develop, used about 500 developers across 5 studios and cost $130 million

SC has been in development since 2011. Five years now. But it was not an established studio, and its development team was small. Of those 5 years, only 3 could perhaps be said to have been used for serious development. And of the $140 million raised so far, not all of that money has been spent.

NONE of that is relevant because again, you guys (most of you in stealth mode) are comparing established and experienced teams and companies - who have released games - to one that haven't. Not to mention the fact that the game scopes are different.

e.g. COD: IW cost less than SC in its entirety. MA:E is on the way as well, and with similar expenses. Yet, neither SC nor SQ42 is near completion.

A game of the size and scope Chris Roberts is going for (NOW) will take years to program and it will take tens of millions of dollars. Likely hundreds.

Which is pointless and part of the scam because that's not what they sold backers.

[dsmart]

Because reality abhors a vacuum...

"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

To constitute fraud, a misrepresentation or omission must also relate to an 'existing fact', not a promise to do something in the future, unless the person who made the promise did so without any present intent to perform it or with a positive intent not to perform it. Promises to do something in the future or a mere expression of opinion cannot be the basis of a claim of fraud unless the person stating the opinion has exclusive or superior knowledge of existing facts which are inconsistent with such opinion. The false statement or omission must be material, meaning that it was significant to the decision to be made.

Sometimes, it must be shown that the plaintiff's reliance was justifiable, and that upon reasonable inquiry would not have discovered the truth of the matter. For injury or damage to be the result of fraud, it must be shown that, except for the fraud, the injury or damage would not have occurred.

To constitute fraud the misrepresentation or omission must be made knowingly and intentionally, not as a result of mistake or accident, or in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. Also, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant intended for the plaintiff to rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; that the plaintiff did in fact rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; and that the plaintiff suffered injury or damage as a result of the fraud. Damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

There are many state and federal laws to regulate fraud in numerous areas. Some of the areas most heavily litigated include consumer fraud, corporate fraud, and insurance fraud."

(Source: https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fraud/)

There.

Make of that what you will.

Yup. I have quoted the "case for fraud" in several blogs already; but some of these people chose to ignore it. Yet wonder why I can blatantly call it a scam without ANY fear of legal repercussions because by all accounts and in our opinion on what they've done, that's basically the end result.

[dsmart]

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

She's not responsible for the game's funding or marketing. There isn't a single shred of evidence that shows that she - through marketing (considering the game has no marketing, this would be hilarious to me) - caused it to raise $140 million.

This is the same person who went on the record - back when they were hiding their marriage - as saying she didn't know what her title actually does. Then they removed that from the website; but of course we have archives.

[dsmart]

More at least.

To be blunt - that is a fantasy. CIG is bringing in double what other crowdfunding games are generating - combined. While I have qualms about the model, I can't argue with its success.

$35 million in 2016 was a marvellous result and one not matched by the marketing professionals at the other companies. CIGs marketing is doing something right to generate that amount of cash for the company, and Sandi is head of marketing. You might think she is unqualified, you might think she is a figurehead, you might think she does nothing but buy designer handbags all day but the simple fact remains...CIG achieved over $35 million of funding in 2016 and a large part of that is due to marketing.

CIG is generating a huge amount of cash for development already. CIG is very successful in this area. Arguing that anyone else should have been capable of generating even more - even when other companies fail to come close - is petty.

The game has no marketing. Going to and hosting shows is borderline marketing; but those are traditional avenues for gaming showcases - not marketing.

Making promises for features, isn't marketing.

[Scruffpuff]

Making promises for features, isn't marketing.

This smacks of a semantic argument at first glance, but it's actually pretty accurate.  CIG actually has no marketing because they don't have a product, or a plan for a product.

They sell ships that don't exist, for game mechanics that don't exist (and aren't planned yet), for a game that doesn't exist and has no roadmap for even BEGINNING development, much less delivery.

Nobody, even Chris Roberts, knows what Star Citizen is.  Even if every stretch goal they listed on their site were to come to fruition, none of them constitute a game.  There is no game, there is no plan for a game, there is no concept, even at the earliest stages, of what the game is and/or will be.  All they have are shitty, sub-par assets in a shitty, sub-par environment, all held together with duct tape and dreams.

You can't market something that doesn't exist.  All you can do is make up facts from whole cloth and then take money from idiots.  CIG is good at that.

[dsmart]

It's one massive confidence scam; which seems to have worked.

[Kyrt]

Why do you care? Does it somehow trigger you? If so, how and why?

I "care" only in that I'd like to play the game that they are developing now. I am a fan of the genre.

So I try to keep up to date with what is happening. And following the feeds of people such as yourself and others to get different viewpoints. You are a developer so you have a viewpoint diffetent from most.

But...continuing to harp on about issues such as the fact that CIG will never release the game they pitched? Who cares? The problem is that that argument has been accepted by CIG. They are proud of it. They are promising something bigger and better in its place and the backers are largely accepting of that. But you keep bringing it up.

You are pushing an argument that YOU have lost. You are right....but you are only reiterating what CIG themselves have stated and your continued use of such facts harms YOUR credibility.

The existing backers mostly don't care and any new backers will be supporting the existing vision.

Oh, and somehow that means they're not running a scam?

No. It means you've presented no evidence that they are. Just opinion and supposition.

How does people not getting paid, amount to them running out of money to complete the game? Please explain.

Who said anything about people not getting paid?

As to the money side, clearly the longer it takes, the more they will need consistent funding. And all the tricks they have pulled in the name of raising funds, are testament to how they are scamming backers in order to continue operations.

And if they weren't pulling those stunts to raise money, how exactly would they still be in operation despite nowhere near completing either of the two games?

Fundraising is not proof of fraud or scams. It isn't even something that hints at fraud or scams. Nor are the marketing tactics that CIG use to promote their fundraising unusual or unique.

Those "stunts" as you call it appear to be a fairly successful marketing campaign

NONE of that is relevant because again, you guys (most of you in stealth mode) are comparing established and experienced teams and companies - who have released games - to one that haven't. Not to mention the fact that the game scopes are different.

Yes...in that the scope of Star Citizen is greater than many such games.  And yet you expect a game that should require 5-8 years of development to be ready in 3. Even knowing CIG had to set up several studios and still don't have a team as big or as experienced as those attached to more established studios.

Assuming the details are correct...SWTOR took nearly 5000 man years to develop. Even were we to use the full 5 years including the time before Kickstarter, CIG would only have spent 2000 man years on development.

And yes..gross simplifications and so on, but the issue here is not that CIG don't have much to show, its that CIG really need to pay more attention to its planned release dates.

It keeps getting them wrong. But so do others. Zelda BotW was due for release in 2015. Daikatan was delayed for years. So was DNF. Last Guardian and FF15 finally got released. Horizon, Destiny 2 and others all missed the 2016 window.

Games get delayed. Deadlines get missed. And as a developer shouldn't you be accepting the fact that Alpha builds would be more susceptible to the issues that cause delays, not less?

Which is pointless and part of the scam because that's not what they sold backers.

And part of what they are doing now came with the stretch goals. And they have already stated the original vision for the game is no more. And backers continue to back so the current vision IS what backers are backing.

CIG have been quite open that the vision has changed.

[nawledgelambo]

Hey someone help a guy out and find the AtV/RtV (can't remember which) of the austin, tx studio talking about how they have anti-hack software installed but they can't talk about it, and tag me here, thanks loves

[Lir]

Why do you care? Does it somehow trigger you? If so, how and why?

I "care" only in that I'd like to play the game that they are developing now. I am a fan of the genre.

So I try to keep up to date with what is happening. (...etc...)

Hello  Kyrt.

Well how to say , you are discussing a point that is irrelevant for us,  for CIG is not a company making a game.
It is a scam machine. Period. You could dream of your dream game and how awesome a space game in the  like of SC would be. I agree with you on that.
Only it is not happening with CIG .
Thing is if you fail to sight and acknowledge CIG is a scam machine then you have to take on yourself, and admit you have been fooled because they are not a game company .
If you fail to see that by yourself, anything we would tell you would be (and is ) irrelevant from your side of things.

Thing is : we are right because facts proove us right. As in sky is blue.

If you refuse to acknowledge this, then you are accepting CR and SG telling you that sky is in green. They are liars, they are not the good people you think they are.
Just accept you have been fooled off your money the same way I had been fooled by them once. It takes lot to admit you can be wrong and accept it. It takes modesty and and a punch at pride.
But the gain from it is the money you would reclaim as refund, and your honor safe for you would have been smarter than them.

That's about it.

[Kyrt]

Well how to say , you are discussing a point that is irrelevant for us,  for CIG is not a company making a game.
It is a scam machine. Period.

And.....am i supposed to take your word for that?

I see no evidence the CIG are scamming anyone. And repeating the same thing over and over again, that they are scammers simply because YOU say so, isn't really good enough.
You are making a serious charge against the company...and the only reason you have for doing so is that they have missed deadlines and raise funds via a Crowdsourcing system rather than backers.

CIG may not be making the progress I think they should be capable of...but they ARE making progress.
CIG may have made some very bad decisions in the past - but they are still developing the game
CIG may have had engaged in poor communications - butt hey are still raking in millions from backers who support them and the vision of the game they are trying to create.

There is no evidence they are scamming folk. No evidence that they are lying. And they aren't the only company to miss deadlines.

Thing is : we are right because facts prove us right. As in sky is blue.

What facts? There are no facts beyond the little details of crowdfunding revenue stream and missed deadlines.

Just accept you have been fooled off your money the same way I had been fooled by them once. It takes lot to admit you can be wrong and accept it. It takes modesty and and a punch at pride.
But the gain from it is the money you would reclaim as refund, and your honor safe for you would have been smarter than them.

Lol....I haven't given them a penny. I ain't a backer and have no intention of doing so until the game is released.

That doesn't stop me being interested in the project or following it. I've pushed Derek Smarts points on other forums where i thought he had soem degree of merit. And here, I'm arguing against the idea the company is a scam machine because so far there is no evidence.  Maybe they are but right now pointing to missed deadlines which aren't unusual in the industry or a crowdfunding model isn't evidence of anything. There isn't even circumstantial evidence.

CIG and Chris Roberts have made bad decisions, have wasted money and have - at best - vastly underestimated the time and resources necessary to produce the game that Chris Roberts wants to create. But while I am not a fan of the crowdfunding system they have - not least because it does remove oversight and accountability - it is giving them funding, and the backers KNOW what they are paying. I think it is stupid to provide so much cash for what will be a $60 game but so long as the backers are aware, who am I to argue? And while I think many of the decision made by CIG and Chris Roberts have been bad...even counterproductive at times...so far it appears that the game IS being developed. Progress might not be as fight as I would like...but progress IS being made.

Castigate CIG for the many bad decisions they have made in the past....but there is no need to make charges that do not appear to be true.

[Lir]

Well I know you haven't invested, I read that somewhere.
 I won't play the quote&debunk stuff cause I'm done with that but :
 Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.
You say there are no evidences : The evidences are all over, starting with RSI website. You have to do the other part and that would only take your good will.

Sky is green for you , I hope you'll think over it.

[Kyrt]

Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.

There is no evidence

And you saying there is evidence is also not evidence. It isn't even conjecture.

I can look at CIGs funding model and say that it is one which disincentivises release of an actual product.
I can look at the lack of previews for Squadron 42 and say that for a game which is supposed to be released in 2017, the lack of any sort of preview is worrying
I can look at Chris Roberts and his continuing  insistence on providing unrealistic release dates that appear obviously unrealistic to everyone outside the faithful.
I can look at CIGs history and point out what look like a number of bad decisions which have cost it time and money....such as the  game engine.
I can look at SC fans and laugh at their fanboi insistence all is OK and SC will be the BDSSE and their absurd willingness to hand over tens of thousands of dollars for a game everyone else will pay 60 bucks for.
I can look at how their poor communication has caused problems and shake my head at how easy some of their problem could have been avoided with just a little thought.

But what i cannot do is look at what is happening and say "this is evidence of a scam". The best - the absolute best - you can say in this regard is say that some of the behaviour they have exhibited can be explained as part of a scam. However, it could also be explained as marketing, or poor communication, or missed deadlines.

Star Citizen is vapourware, yes. There is currently no sign of a finished product. The current work we've seen is essentially a series of unlinked tech demos.

But there is also no doubt that CIG ARE working on the game. That they are trying to make the game Chris Roberts has pushed.

CIG might fold before that game is released. But it might not.
The game might be brilliant. Or it might be bad.

But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

[Flashwit]

Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.

There is no evidence

And you saying there is evidence is also not evidence. It isn't even conjecture.

I can look at CIGs funding model and say that it is one which disincentivises release of an actual product.
I can look at the lack of previews for Squadron 42 and say that for a game which is supposed to be released in 2017, the lack of any sort of preview is worrying
I can look at Chris Roberts and his continuing  insistence on providing unrealistic release dates that appear obviously unrealistic to everyone outside the faithful.
I can look at CIGs history and point out what look like a number of bad decisions which have cost it time and money....such as the  game engine.
I can look at SC fans and laugh at their fanboi insistence all is OK and SC will be the BDSSE and their absurd willingness to hand over tens of thousands of dollars for a game everyone else will pay 60 bucks for.
I can look at how their poor communication has caused problems and shake my head at how easy some of their problem could have been avoided with just a little thought.

But what i cannot do is look at what is happening and say "this is evidence of a scam". The best - the absolute best - you can say in this regard is say that some of the behaviour they have exhibited can be explained as part of a scam. However, it could also be explained as marketing, or poor communication, or missed deadlines.

Star Citizen is vapourware, yes. There is currently no sign of a finished product. The current work we've seen is essentially a series of unlinked tech demos.

But there is also no doubt that CIG ARE working on the game. That they are trying to make the game Chris Roberts has pushed.

CIG might fold before that game is released. But it might not.
The game might be brilliant. Or it might be bad.

But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Yeah, I want to jump on in here with Kyrt as well.

I suppose in the end it's an argument of semantics, but it seems like you guys don't actually know what the word 'scam' even means.
A con would involve the con man (Chris Roberts) gaining the trust of the mark (the backers) so that they give him a ton of money while he produces nothing in return leaving the backers holding nothing. At this point he's certainly got the 'ton of money' part, the difference being that he's actually producing something in return for the money. It's definitely a shitty something right now, and could ultimately end up being released as a shitty something or not being released at all but a key part of a con is that the con man's purpose is to defraud the marks. The facts are that at that moment, money is coming in, and it is being used to rent offices, pay salaries of game developers, and I assume a bunch of other stuff including wasteful spending like on that space door.

Until I see evidence otherwise, I believe that Chris is simply terrible at managing a game development studio. Occam's AND Hanlon's Razor people. It's far simpler to believe that Chris is bad at his job than to believe that he at some point changed his goal from developing a game to maliciously defrauding tens of thousands of people.

But really, it's the end result that matters. Whether the game is crappy because he's a crappy developer or it's crappy because he has engineered some sort of absurd long con, the end result is a crappy game. It's perfectly acceptable to take him to task for mismanagement of money without conjuring a conspiracy behind it all.

You're just going to look silly otherwise.

(Full Disclosure is that I have a grand total of $35 in Star Citizen)