Star Citizen - The E.L.E.

[Scruffpuff]

Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.

Keep a close eye on this project over the next year.  As long as your happiness is not riding on the success of this project, and you're able to enjoy a spectacle that might not be positive, I think you'll be rather amused by the ramifications of the aforementioned achievement as they become manifest.

And I stand by my assessment of Mr. Roberts, and it has nothing to do with his capacity as a boss.  The man is a lying, conniving scam artist, and that's far from limited to Star Citizen.  In fact I'd say that, at least in the beginning, this is probably the most honest project he's ever been involved in.  Again - at first.  It didn't take long for the old habits to reassert themselves.  He's screwing you and everyone else, and if he didn't set out to at first, he's complicit now.

I want to briefly touch on something else:  I've noticed this kind of thing before with people - you're not unique in this regard so this isn't aimed at you at all - in that they take something where you can make predictions based on all available evidence, and set a probability.  If the probability is one people don't like, they tend to stave off the implications with "only time will tell."  I think, in 2016 especially, it's been proven that all the predictions of all the experts can be catastrophically wrong.  However, just saying "only time will tell" does not automatically tip the scales of probability, or erase all of the arguments for and against the likelihood of this project's success.  It's still important to have a critical eye, stand back, remove any and all hopeful feelings you have, and say "due to the information available, Star Citizen is not likely to live up to its promises."

Might it release in some diminished form?  Sure.  And I'm guilty of a personal animus against Chris.  But I can mentally erase him from my assessment and independently reach the conclusion that SC needs to make some hardcore, almost miraculous changes to see any of its potential to completion.  Even with him out of the picture - they can't even get the PU in a semi-stable state and they're already piling on new things without any idea how any of it will plug together - just get it out, get screenshots, and sell sell sell.

There's a misconception that people highly critical of the game want it to fail.  To them I'd say, have you ever seen people at a football game when their team fucks up?  When their favorite quarterback drops the ball?  They're fucking insane - you literally hear death threats descending from the bleachers.  And that's towards their team.  Nobody wants this to fail.  I'm pissed because it most likely will, and it didn't have to.

[AP]

The game won't need to be amazing to succeed. Pay to win is an interesting conversation. I think you have to remember that they have some of the very best game designers working on this game. All the names that the nerds respect for being awesome. Pappy, Zurovec, Roberts Bros etc. It doesn't seem hard to envisage a game where the average Idris owner wouldn't be giving two hoots what the Aurora starter pilot is doing. In any way shape or form. As long as the lone Aurora guy can work his way upwards in vaguely fun ways, it's not pay to win in any game breaking way.

Sorry, but yet again, time will tell. Will some of the best game developers around manage to work out fun stuff for huge ship owners and little ship owners to play and progress? Well I can think of plenty of ways and I'm an idiot. Massive org owner is helping out the UEE or any other faction against any other larger faction, NPC, alien or otherwise. Aurora guy is doing a 'Homestead' type mission. Never shall they cross paths.

It really doesn't seem that hard to me.

How will they be judged? Hey guess what? Time will tell. If it succeeds, some will hail Chris as a visionary genius who made his, and 2.x million other people's, dreams come true. Some will deride his efforts as wasteful, narcissistic and nowhere near good enough.

If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

This is all dreams, they paid extra to hire some names, just as they did for the SQ42 movie, just as they did with Illfonic, CGBot, setting up F42 by hiring local Lego talent, throw cash at the problem.  If the names were the right choices or not, well the current "game" should demonstrate if they could overcome the limits enforced by Chris Roberts micro managing and going with whatever is cool at the moment coupled with a complete lack of understanding of, well anything, so that's a firm no.  How did Illfonic work out, another firm no, time/money wasted.  Take notice of all the promotions from QA, the new hires with their first gaming role, the lack of game producers with a shipped game to their name.  Ben Lesnick described a game producer as a kind of secretary, what did he do before, oh he worked in a school. Even Tony Zurovec has been out of the industry for years.

But leaving all that aside, I notice that you completely side stepped the topic you brought up that we were talking about.  You guys beat the drum of well CIG didn't go bust in 90 days as if it means anything.  Chris Roberts has been selling dreams since October 2012, not only does the dream keep changing and getting bigger, he forgets what he's said before and he's not called on it anywhere near enough.  50% of the active forum users voted CIG had actually broken the pledge, the only solid promise some think they've actually made.

I'm at a complete loss to how you expect him to keep to anything he's said if it's awkward and it will be.  Balancing thousand dollar spaceships with $30 starters would be a lot more than awkward.  But it doesn't matter, there'll never be a game as such, all CIG do is make marketing videos and have sales, the actual game is completely broken.  Aptly demonstrated by the fact they haven't actually fixed anything or had a patch in months and they're selling ships with crew sizes larger than max instance sizes.

This is not a computer game, it's a role-playing game, all the content is in your head.

Also you have nothing to apologise to me for, I find your justifications fascinating. The only question remaining is how long you guys will keep reaching into your wallets for the sales before you wake up, the sales they need at least one of every single month.

[Kyrt]

Those are all valid points.

However, the problem they have now is that even with an MVP, which Chris had already hinted at (heck even his 4.0 by end of 2017 isn't even an MVP!), they still won't be able to deliver that by end of 2017. Which means they will still need on-going funding to even deliver that. Not to mention that he's bet a lot on SQ42. I don't know if anyone thinks that SQ42 has any chance of making an impact, when in fact most backers already entitled to it. Not to mention the fact that all the money they are making from concept ships, are for the PU, not SQ42

Will 4.0 launch at EoY 17 as promised?
I think it is possible. If my reading of Kotaku is correct, major issues involving blocks such as the engine have mostly been resolved. If true, we can potentially expect development speed to increase.

Having said that...I doubt it. I would expect 4.0 mid 2018 myself with a Beta possibly EoY 2018 and a full release mid 2019.

It'd be possible to accelerate that timetable or slow it down depending on what CR is willing to put into his MVP.

As for SQ42...I have to agree that games like CODIW will have stolen a lot of its thunder. And that a lot of players have already paid for it and its first...of three IIRC correctly...expansions which will hamper revenue streams. I don't know how much marketing CR plans for it...or even if he will market it...but a marketing campaign could be expensive.

However....because of the funding model, CIG might not care about marketing the game. Word of mouth...reviews...etc....might generate enough new sales for them. There is no incentive here to maximise exposure because the people they have to please have already bought the game. And there is no immediate need for a quick release because SQ42 NEEDS to be good so it doesn't poison the waterhole.

What is worrying about SQ42 is that if the game is really due for release next year, I would have expected some formal marketing already. Even if it were just previews or screenshots in the regular press. I'm not seeing it. I'm not even sure people will be aware SC and SQ42 have effectively split into two games.

Which was a smart decision in some ways....but bad in others IMO.  Same with the console talk...CIG need to maximise their income so a console release is smart. Its a pity PC only was a big talking point of the campaign.

[Kyrt]

Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.

A 64 bit system other games such as Elite also uses.

And because Elite uses a custom engine, it was apparently able to make use of certain mathematical tricks to allow it to work with a 128 bit scale.

The more I learn, the more it seems Chris Roberts decision not to develop a custom engine was a mistake. Or...if he had to buy an engine, he could has looked into licensing the engine used by Elite.

Elite has problems of its own...but it was able to be developed and released cheaply and quickly.

[jcrg99]

The difference is visible if you break it down. Chris says, '[We hope to give you, AC module/Planetside/Star Marine/2.0/2.5], [on this possible date/time frame]. First part happens. Second part is less predictable, but has happened eventually. Not exactly a fail.

While the second part is less predictable, hardly, any serious game developer would come to the customers or investors and claim that something was near release, a couple of weeks, but then, that thing did not happen even years later. You claim that AC Module and Planetside happened. It didn't. Roberts promised on 2013, that you would be flying from space to planet, at least in two locations by earlier 2014. We are now in 2016 and all "Planetside" they have is an empty area with nothing to do. The AC module has nothing that will keep people tied to it for more hours than the hours that take to download the thing, at least, for the majority of the public. And Star Marine never happened. Still to be released. So, yes. This is a fail. If you plan and say something to your customer and deliver crap or something so deviated from what you said, both in time frame and quality (fun), if you don't consider that a fail, there is no such thing as failing.

Derek says, [Money runs out/Mass walk out/Law suits/Can't be done/Smoke and mirrors], [90 days tops/End of Year/Last CitizenCon]. None of which has happened. First part, (content), or second part, (time frame).

Derek is not selling anything. He has a grey view about the project. He can make all the mistakes possible and still be considered as a good analyst, considering the information that he has avaialble to make his predictions. Now... Roberts... he has everything in front of him. And you prefer to hold Derek, but not Roberts accountable. Consider Derek failing, but not Roberts. This is ridiculous.

I'll say it again. Every time I log in to Crusader, there are people playing the game. Chat is busy, people are having fun. Fact. People are playing the game.

Certainly a couple of dozen people playing on Crusader is not enough to claim that the majority of the community or the general public play this game. Have you ever counted how many are playing, or if they are different people? Please do that and enlight us then with this data. But remember. Sometimes, people use multiple accounts. Otherwise, your comment is totally irrelevant and with any objectivity. So much for claiming that others offer "opinions" and you pretend to have facts.

See above. Chat is busy. People are excited. The forums are busy. People are excited.

See above.

Trying to deny the potential of what is on offer is silly. How well they pull it off is a completely different conversation of course but come on, denying it's potential is ridiculous.

Any developer that is interested to sell dreams and hopes can deliver what they do. Can deliver something, regardless any feasibility of that thing, in the way that is implemented, never will work out under the promised design that hyped people to buy into the thing. There is nothing shown so far that demonstrated the potential of delivery in any acceptable time frame and working fine for the public, to satisfy not just their own community (not 2000 zealots that praise Roberts instead the the game/project, cosniderign it optional in the end of the day, I Am talking about their 500k backers at least, that wanted the game as promised). The only thing that they have been demonstrating along these yeras is the contrary. IS that they can't deliver into their promises and that they managed to make people invest crazy quantities of money for assets and a game that wouldn't have the value of 20 dollars, if sold without all this Amway scheme, in the traditional way, with the features that RSI will be actually able to deliver in the next 2/3 years.

The time frame could be a potential problem but Squadron will be here fast enough,

You are so delayed as Chris Roberts my friend. Squadron should be released by 2014 (per Roberts). Then 2015 (per Roberts). Then 2016 (per Roberts). Now the interest definitely dropped. It won't be THAT thing that could be if released by 2014. CoD IW is out there. ME:Andromeda is coming earlier... they are not exactly the same game, but pretty much stole already the "surprise" element and just as the demo that they shown about Star Marine, the biggest chances is that for most of its community and general public, Squadron 42 be a meh of a game, specially because press and everyone will put in this balance, all that was needed to make Squadron 42, meaning, all the crazy scheme of asking people 2500 dollars for one in-game asset, that won't be even useful, available, in this Squadron 42, for players.

how good it is could decide the future of SC I suppose. With the number of rabid fans out there I get the feeling it won't need to be spectacular to be good enough to drive the project to completion. Time will tell.

I have no doubt. But, by "project to completion", clearly, you imply that be whatever and not something to live up to his hype or with the promised features hyped along the last years. That became clear in the moment that you claimed that Roberts accomplished with its promises, like AC and other modules, when in fact, nothing of that was finished, nothing of that lived up to his hype and nothing of that is good, except for a couple thousands rabid fans. They can keep this for longer... of course... But this game never will be accomplished in any level as promised, or, if that happens one day, others in the industry will have already make SC a meh outdated game, with a few different features and details that in the end of the day, will be ignored for most of the public of the game industry. As I already said: Mediocre.

Meh. Funding is funding.

Again, showing one more time total lack of objectivity

As I said, only time will tell

You are delayed as Roberts. Time already told.

What we know:
Probable:
'UEE Fleet' number of accounts with ships attached?
Hardly a conspiracy.

UEE Fleet is the number of ships sold, not accounts with ships. The other number is number of accounts created in the website, many of them, with zero invested, duplicated accounts etc. And there just a couple hundreds people playing Star Citizen... that is yours "many people excited" that you claimed before.

The counter has to be considered accurate.

That sounded to me as "The Bible has to be considered accurate". Total lack of objectivity from your side here... again. Considering that Roberts already was caught lying to the public/press, etc., many times, I highly doubt that the counter is accurate.

[dsmart]

Chris, and his company, have done what other 'tier 1' devs said was impossible already. (Archived fact).

Such as?

Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.

Wow. That's all you could come up with?

I hate to break it to you though, but that's pure - and utter - rubbish. You all know this.

64-Bit floating point precision map is NOT the same as 64-Bit positioning. In fact, on Nov 22, 2015, I wrote a missive explaining that.

But despite the fact that even the engineers have gone on the record debunking that nonsense, some of you still keep parroting it.

Basically, all the scenes are "stitched" together in order to have a cohesive whole that quantum travel sequence hides.

[dsmart]

The game won't need to be amazing to succeed. Pay to win is an interesting conversation. I think you have to remember that they have some of the very best game designers working on this game. All the names that the nerds respect for being awesome. Pappy, Zurovec, Roberts Bros etc. It doesn't seem hard to envisage a game where the average Idris owner wouldn't be giving two hoots what the Aurora starter pilot is doing. In any way shape or form. As long as the lone Aurora guy can work his way upwards in vaguely fun ways, it's not pay to win in any game breaking way.

Sorry, but yet again, time will tell. Will some of the best game developers around manage to work out fun stuff for huge ship owners and little ship owners to play and progress? Well I can think of plenty of ways and I'm an idiot. Massive org owner is helping out the UEE or any other faction against any other larger faction, NPC, alien or otherwise. Aurora guy is doing a 'Homestead' type mission. Never shall they cross paths.

It really doesn't seem that hard to me.

How will they be judged? Hey guess what? Time will tell. If it succeeds, some will hail Chris as a visionary genius who made his, and 2.x million other people's, dreams come true. Some will deride his efforts as wasteful, narcissistic and nowhere near good enough.

If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

But leaving all that aside, I notice that you completely side stepped the topic you brought up that we were talking about.  You guys beat the drum of well CIG didn't go bust in 90 days as if it means anything.  Chris Roberts has been selling dreams since October 2012, not only does the dream keep changing and getting bigger, he forgets what he's said before and he's not called on it anywhere near enough.  50% of the active forum users voted CIG had actually broken the pledge, the only solid promise some think they've actually made.

The thing is that even back when they released 2.0, I took one look at it, assessed what they had left, and said that there was no way in hell either game was coming out in 2016.

I wrote about that here on Nov 21, 2015 shortly after PU 2.0 was released to much post-CitizenCon2015 fanfare. I said:

And what we’re seeing in this 2.0 release, despite it being in the PTU and not final release, is precisely what I predicted would happen back when they released the buggy social/planetside module.

I have no confidence – none – that they will ever deliver the Star Citizen they promised. At least not in 2016. From what they just released to the PTU as 2.0, my estimation is still that this project is at least 2-3 years and another $75m (if they are frugal) away.

If they survive 2016 long enough to deliver SQ42 EP1 (they promised 70 missions. lol!!) which they are now heavily pushing, my guess is that’s the good faith they’re now shooting for. Guess what? All existing backers are already entitled to it. And now it’s being sold separately for $45 to non-backers. Imagine then how those who have spent upwards of $30K on this project will feel when all they will have got is a half-baked Star Citizen and a SQ42 that others only paid $45 for.

There is absolutely no fucking version of this where it ends well for anyone. Chris has completely and totally screwed this once promising project.

Yet, they ignore all these predictions and analysis, instead, focusing on "they didn't collapse in 90 days" bullshit. Amid all the lies he keeps telling, and scam tactics being used to continue milking whales. Given what we know now, it's easy to conclude that had they stopped giving them money, the project would either have died this year, or been heavily down-sized in resources. Which is precisely what I've said is likely to happen in 2017.

I said Star Marine was benched. They said I lied. I said SQ42 wasn't coming out in 2016. Same thing. I said the PU was fucked. Same thing. It goes on and on and on. They are in complete denial, and will continue to argue while taking the most ludicrous of stances.

Here we are at the end of 2017; and they haven't done much for a WHOLE YEAR in which they received over $30 million in funding. All they've released this year, and since the first hangar release, as per the 2.5 feature list are:

- patches
- clothing shop
- hangar ready ships
- flight ready ships
- GrimHex base

No meaningful gameplay other than the repetitive flip-a-switch missions. No gameplay mechanics.

That's it. If I missed anything, someone can correct me.

ps: I just created a new thread to discuss the merits of the "game"

[ConfusedMonkeh]

Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.

See you in the 'verse commandos.

[Propagandist]

See you in the 'verse commandos.

Not likely but thanks for stopping by and talking to us!  Godspeed commando

[dsmart]

Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.

See you in the 'verse commandos.

Wait!! Don't go!! You didn't respond to my post!! That's like rage quitting!!  :argh:

[ANeuroticCorncob]

Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.

See you in the 'verse commandos.

savagely owned.

[Scruffpuff]

The "time will tell" parting shot shows probability comprehension to be around 0%.  We should be thankful - people like that are why we have lotteries (which is basically free money for the state) and so on.  On the other hand, people like that are why scams thrive.  So I guess it's a wash - Chris claims more unearned cash to burn for his own uses.

[Mehlan]

"Here we are at the end of 2017; and they haven't done much for a WHOLE YEAR in which they received over $30 million in funding. All they've released this year, and since the first hangar release, as per the 2.5 feature list are:"

  Well to be honest, really...they haven't done much in two years.   2015 was almost all about 'Star Marine' and we know how that turned out.   2016 Wasn't much play wise either.  Some where in there they put out the mini-pu tossed out some satellites with the same 'yawn' npcs.    Where's the vaunted 'AI' we heard so much about that should have been in the works for the last several years (that whole 'modular development' thing).

[ConfusedMonkeh]

Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.


See you in the 'verse commandos.

Wait!! Don't go!! You didn't respond to my post!! That's like rage quitting!!  :argh:

Seeing as Derek misses me so much already, I thought I'd come back for another chat. There was no 'huff' to be fair. More a sigh. A sigh of pity for jcr and his down right warped view of reality and a sigh of expectation at your, either downright lies or wanton misunderstanding. Also, who am I to deny you all your daily lols?

Best way to do this I think is to explain my thought process. Always up for providing more lols me. You're welcome.

I heard Chris mention the 64 bit conversion shortly after I bought my first package in Jan 2014. He mentioned it was millions of lines of code and a huge undertaking and he said they'd been working on it for quite some time already and it was coming along.

It may shock you to hear but I am not a game developer. I thought of a couple of things that seemed to debunk your theory. I read your linked missive again and decided I couldn't determine the truth of it either way. WTF do I know?

Flying at cruise speeds for more than 8km in a single direction would prove it's not a 32 bit position system wouldn't it? You mention world origin rebasing, so the '0 point' could move with the ship...

You can QD anywhere in the map, with or without a POI, so how can it load a scene with no POI nearby? Space is pretty empty so I doubt it would be too hard to position the coordinates of the POI's appropriately and generate a scene of empty space...

I've seen a video of a spectator seeing a ship QD through their perspective...It wasn't that obvious but I don't think that one could be explained with your theory but meh. Not enough.

I know you're wrong though. So what to do? I decided to do some research and ask one of the CIG devs direct.

The CryEngine forums had a couple of threads about SC and 'StarEngine' and there is even some CryEngine dev responses in there as well. They appeared to back up CIG's version of events without being obvious. I was even more sure you were full of it Derek.

I messaged a CIG developer on the RSI forums and asked outright, quoting your comment:

I hate to break it to you though, but that's pure - and utter - rubbish. You all know this.

64-Bit floating point precision map is NOT the same as 64-Bit positioning. In fact, on Nov 22, 2015, I wrote a missive explaining that.

But despite the fact that even the engineers have gone on the record debunking that nonsense, some of you still keep parroting it.

Basically, all the scenes are "stitched" together in order to have a cohesive whole that quantum travel sequence hides.

The dev was kind enough to respond to me. Here is part of the reply:

it's true that things get *authored* as isolated scenes. That's just good sense. But this whole "stitching" thing is just lack of imagination on his part, I think. Or a setup for him to backpedal and say that because assets get loaded as you approach them, he was right all along.
If all you want is a dev saying he's wrong, well, he's wrong.

Here's a recent interview with Sean Tracey that seems to suggest you're wrong as well.

The moral of this story is very simple. Just because you don't think something is viable or possible doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. They've done it. Claiming otherwise just makes you look even more ridiculous than ever.

The "time will tell" parting shot shows probability comprehension to be around 0%.  We should be thankful - people like that are why we have lotteries (which is basically free money for the state) and so on.  On the other hand, people like that are why scams thrive.  So I guess it's a wash - Chris claims more unearned cash to burn for his own uses.

What the? I'm saying time will tell because it's true. All you guys are so certain you're assessment of the project is the only possible one. It's daft. You don't know. I don't know. The only certain thing is that time will tell.

Jcr: Truly can't be bothered responding to you again. It's pointless. You're lost in negativity. Good luck hombre.  May life treat you better than your perception of how CIG did.

[jcrg99]

It may shock you to hear but I am not a game developer. I thought of a couple of things that seemed to debunk your theory. I read your linked missive again and decided I couldn't determine the truth of it either way. WTF do I know?
...
I know you're wrong though.

Yeah, yeah... ok.

So what to do? I decided to do some research and ask one of the CIG devs direct.
 
The moral of this story is very simple. Just because you don't think something is viable or possible doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. They've done it. Claiming otherwise just makes you look even more ridiculous than ever.

Dismiss what DS says because don't understand. Accept what a dev under the paycheck of RSI says. Ok.

So, how is working the high fidelity capital/fleet battles full PvP in one Universe with millions of players logged in, with ship-to-ship combat and FPS combat going on seamlessly? 

Oh! I see... It does not exist... That's just to show how irrelevant were all your points and research, in this try to claim "They've done it". Anyone can do anything specifically. Some tech. Some high fidelity demo. Some whatever. The problem is, making Star Citizen as promised to work. That is what matters and what people, us, everyone else and Derek Smart probably care more. You just wasted your time sir, not bringing any reliable source in the first place.

RSI developers, specially the ones who usually contact the public, by this point, lied so much in the face of the people, so many times, that you should understand that they are the last source that you should bring to prove any point. Or what they answer for is so specific that is meaningless to the whole. The effect have been the contrary. When they say that its possible and they've done, people automatically will believe that they didn't make anything and are just trying to keep the public believing for longer. You should realize that.

Or just keep with your head buried in the sand, bringing all their answers that basically means nothing as didn't mean nothing in the last years too. Only the fanboys believe in whatever they say and ignore how many times THEY were wrong or just lying. And then, they answer whatever and that is enough to prove anyone else wrong.. Still.. the game, their actual deliveries, proves everyone else, but them, right.

And, once again... to make this clear... the specifics does not matter. What matters is the whole and is under THIS PREMISSE, of the whole, that Derek Smart and many others say that SC never will be released as promised. Anyone can do any tech that never will work in the end for the actual purpose that it was or should be built. See?