Why I already got my money's worth out of Star Citizen

[Moeis]

The first and foremost reason why I put money, $60, towards Star Citizen was to show the industry that there is a market for space combat sims.  Prior to SC and Elite Dangerous the space combat sim genre was basically forgotten, with only a rare game being released in the genre.  The second and least important reason was for SQ42/SC.

Sure I get to play what they have released so far for SC, and that does play in getting my money value out of it, but only a small part.

Since the time that SC began and became huge, I have seen a better resurgence of the space combat sim genre, with more and more good quality or better space sims being released, and I do feel that the developers were inspired to make the games they wanted because seeing so many people taking part in funding SC/ED it gave them the confidence that they could actually make some money from their own little projects.  So my $60 put my voice out there to prove that the space combat sim genre can be profitable and can have more attention to it than before.

Also for me personally, because of my discussions with other people about SQ42/SC and talking about the past when space sims were at their peak, I found out that there is a whole Freespace 2 open source project.  I could not believe I did not know this was going on for a very long time, from my understanding around the mid 2000s.  What a fantastic project that is, and ever since I found about it I have been playing Freespace 1 and 2 and the user made campaigns since that time a lot.

So this is why I already got my money's worth.  Anything else from SC after this is nothing more than the cherry on top.

[Orgetorix]

Anything else from SC after this is nothing more than the cherry on top.

So your whole justification for supporting Croberts, and Star Citizen boils down to this.

He sucked $150 million+ into a blackhole of game dev for a project that will never be finished, but that's perfectly alright because it somehow, someway shined a spot light on a little served area of the game market.

 

You do understand that the ends should never justify the means. All the money that Croberts is dumping down a hole is wasted, you get that?

The space sim resurgence would have happened without him, you understand that?

A vast portion of that money would have inevitably made it's way to those games that have come out and are playable.

So just to make sure I haven't misunderstood you. It's perfectly alright for Croberts to run the greatest scam in crowd funding history, just because a couple other games you like have gotten a boost (In your mind), from his scam?

:gary: :ughh: :yarg:

[Spunky Munkee]

So it was only possible for you to have stumbled across like minded individuals interested in an old but good Space game (I played too and it was one of the best period) because you sent Chris Roberts your $60. Admittedly it's good when you can stumble across people with similar interests. I think it was more because Star Citizen has been an abysmal failure and as a reaction to not having their needs met that they were seeking to fulfil this need, not because Star Citizen did anything good.

You are of this opinion so be it.

If you are looking for people to agree with you you are in the wrong place. You are not here to learn why you should pull out of the project so why are you here? 

Oh since you have now hooked up with this community of spacers you don't really need Star Citizen.  Knowing that he has a long history of blowing through budgets, Not completing projects on time, on budget or at all, not remaining focused and on task, is unable to keep control of CIG's spending, and is a habitual liar, why would you give your money to a project that (you say you know what he is and all about the project status) is far more likely to fail than succeed?   

That's OK, we don't really want to know. It would only lead to more questions and answers that we would find suspect. You are happy with your decision for reasons that only you would be able to comprehend. Good for you. You can join your like minded friends since there is nothing for you to learn here.

[Moeis]

Anything else from SC after this is nothing more than the cherry on top.

So your whole justification for supporting Croberts, and Star Citizen boils down to this.

He sucked $150 million+ into a blackhole of game dev for a project that will never be finished, but that's perfectly alright because it somehow, someway shined a spot light on a little served area of the game market.

 

You do understand that the ends should never justify the means. All the money that Croberts is dumping down a hole is wasted, you get that?

The space sim resurgence would have happened without him, you understand that?

A vast portion of that money would have inevitably made it's way to those games that have come out and are playable.

So just to make sure I haven't misunderstood you. It's perfectly alright for Croberts to run the greatest scam in crowd funding history, just because a couple other games you like have gotten a boost (In your mind), from his scam?

:gary: :ughh: :yarg:

Well except I see no reason to see it as a scam.  So you are wrong in your summation of what I am saying.

[ecg]

Okay, lets see if I have this...Take 150 million dollars, give VP position to my wife, Open a studio for my brother, give other high company positions to friends, sell jpegs of ships, delay release of game by years because is not perfect, needs more polish. After 6 years have a few tech demo alpha modules to show for effort so far.

Sounds like a perfect business model /sarcasm

[Spunky Munkee]

Guys, Stop playing his game.

He is here to troll you, stop feeding him.

No reasonable person could agree with him or his reasoning and even when you repeat his reasoning back he says you don't understand. Let's stop playing his game with his rules.

[Moeis]

Guys, Stop playing his game.

He is here to troll you, stop feeding him.

No reasonable person could agree with him or his reasoning and even when you repeat his reasoning back he says you don't understand. Let's stop playing his game with his rules.

Except it isn't trolling at all.  Rather it is giving a different perspective on the situation from 1 backer.

But is this place just supposed to be an echo chamber then?

[Orgetorix]

Well except I see no reason to see it as a scam.  So you are wrong in your summation of what I am saying.

"You assume too much.  My not having any interest in debating the details is not wanting to go through all the work for what will be an act of futility.  I have kept an open mind, having an open mind does not mean I would come to the same conclusions as you did." -Moeis

Then what's the point of further discussion on this or any other matter. We all have essentially agreed to disagree.

My views are my own personal opinion, the proprietor of this forum has his own personal opinion, the other posters here have their own personal opinion's, and your views are your own personal opinion. Having said that, there is nothing further to discuss.

Each and everyone of our own views will only be vindicated by the passage of time, as it always has been from the beginning.

As there is nothing further to discuss I bid you a good night.

[Moeis]

So it was only possible for you to have stumbled across like minded individuals interested in an old but good Space game (I played too and it was one of the best period) because you sent Chris Roberts your $60. Admittedly it's good when you can stumble across people with similar interests. I think it was more because Star Citizen has been an abysmal failure and as a reaction to not having their needs met that they were seeking to fulfil this need, not because Star Citizen did anything good.

You are of this opinion so be it.

If you are looking for people to agree with you you are in the wrong place. You are not here to learn why you should pull out of the project so why are you here? 

Oh since you have now hooked up with this community of spacers you don't really need Star Citizen.  Knowing that he has a long history of blowing through budgets, Not completing projects on time, on budget or at all, not remaining focused and on task, is unable to keep control of CIG's spending, and is a habitual liar, why would you give your money to a project that (you say you know what he is and all about the project status) is far more likely to fail than succeed?   

That's OK, we don't really want to know. It would only lead to more questions and answers that we would find suspect. You are happy with your decision for reasons that only you would be able to comprehend. Good for you. You can join your like minded friends since there is nothing for you to learn here.

Finding out about Freespace Open Source is more of a side effect.  SC was the catalyst that started a conversation with someone else, who by the way was someone I worked with for years and we never talked about space sims, not until after SC started and I saw his computer opened up to an article about it.

I don't see Chris Roberts as a liar, I would need proof that the stuff he says he knew for certain it wasn't going to happen when he said it.  Also I feel the games are more then likely to be released than not to release, just like his other PC games.  I can't think of any of his PC games that didn't release. 

[N0mad]

Except it isn't trolling at all.  Rather it is giving a different perspective on the situation from 1 backer.

But is this place just supposed to be an echo chamber then?

Moeis are you Serendipity in disguise? Because I remember going through all these same arguments with him over and over. At least you haven't trolled Derek yet, so I suppose not.

[Moeis]

Except it isn't trolling at all.  Rather it is giving a different perspective on the situation from 1 backer.

But is this place just supposed to be an echo chamber then?

Moeis are you Serendipity in disguise? Because I remember going through all these same arguments with him over and over. At least you haven't trolled Derek yet, so I suppose not.

No, I am not Serendipity.
I did get one warning from him, saying I personally attacked him, though I am not exactly sure what i said that would be considered as a personal attack. I sent a PM to him to help me and out understand what exactly I did... still waiting for an answer.

Anyways, I have been a lurker off and on for a while, and I decided to sign up because I wanted to respond to someone that made a statement about crowdfunding in general, and I wanted to give my perspective.  Then it turned into a pringles can situation, you just cannot stop at one (post).
I am trying to not troll anybody, nor personally attack anybody, just trying to give a perspective without getting into fights about the details that I am sure people have gone over many times over already.

[Motto]

Hi Moeis, before this goes any further, let me just repeat the welcome I gave Suzikuh:

Hi Suzikuh, and welcome. I suggest that you start by reading the topics in bold first, starting at page 1 in everyone of them. This will give you a clear view of this forum, it's members and our take on Star Citizen. If you still feel you have new arguments to discuss with us, please join the table. I for one however, do not wish nor want to repeat the endless discussions we have had with Serenstupidity.

Please note that we here are all convinced that Star Citizen has turned into a scam, that it can and will not be made and that the collapse of the whole thing is imminent. We are here to watch and discuss the when and how of said collapse, not a if. So trying to start yet another discussion that the if is questionable or that the how and when still lacks proof is pointless. Just so you know.

So, ready to come in and join the hilarity that is Scam Shitizen?

The same applies to you. That doesn't mean that this is an echo chamber, far from it, but endlessy going over and over about the same arguments is just tiresome. Suzikuh has never been since by the way.

I don't have a problem with you spending 60 dollars on a game and I don't care for your motivations too. I couldn't care less actually. To back a project you think is worthy of your money is your choice. I backed Dual Universe for 100 bucks, my money, my choice. And if what Scam Shitizen has brought you sofar, is your money's worth, that's even better. That's not our problem here.

Our problem here is that Chris went overboard with his promises and he can't keep those. Now he didn't start like that, but that's how it became. And in order not to lose everything by admitting he can't deliver on his promises, or trying to focus on what he possibly can deliver as a minimum as soon as he realised that, he just started scamming people. Asking them for (more) money in the full knowledge he can not and will not deliver anything in return. In the meantime, he's giving himself a large sum of money and gave the same benefits to nine other people very close to him without any of them even being close to actually being worth that kind of money. That's our problem!

If all backers just put in 60 bucks and it had stopped there, no sweat. But there are backers that have put in thousands and thousands of dollars. Chris took that money, said "hey, thank you for my salary and making me and my friends rich" and did nothing else for it. If he had done something for it, there would have been a game by now. Or at the least, something presentable as real progress. Just saying, well, those backers did give money out of their free will is true, but very shortsighted as well. And the biggest problem is that Chris still asks for more money every day. If you by now are still giving him your money, that's just really, really stupid. However, that doesn't justify Chris doing it. Allowing people to be scammed doesn't make scamming legit.

The problem is, the money is gone and there will be no full game. Scam Shitizen is about to crash and burn hard. And no, you don't need to rebuttle that statement, it's a fact, plain and simple.

Now, after that C&B has happened, people will not get their money back as it has been used to pay for staff, offices, equipment etc. But backers didn't spend their money for those things alone, they expected something in return for paying those salaries, the rent and the equipment. And there is where it fails. And for that, Chris and his croonies should be stripped of everthing they own and do some jailtime too. I fear that some backers might actually commit suicide when CIG collapses and they realise they have wasted 30K on the nice words, fancy pictures and busy handwaving from Chris.

There is no need for you to come with arguments that there is progress, that this never has been done before, that there are no signs of lack of funds and bladibladibladibla and bla. Been there, done that. No need to repeat it again. There's no argument you could bring to the table that we'd accept. Even if we haven't heard it before yet. That's not cultism, it's just there is so much overwhelming evidence buy now that Derek is right, there is no argument to prove hime wrong. The only thing that would prove Derek wrong, is Chris delivering Scam Shitizen as he promised it. And even you have to admit that the chances of that happening are next to nothing.

[dsmart]

The first and foremost reason why I put money, $60, towards Star Citizen was to show the industry that there is a market for space combat sims.  Prior to SC and Elite Dangerous the space combat sim genre was basically forgotten, with only a rare game being released in the genre.  The second and least important reason was for SQ42/SC.

Sure I get to play what they have released so far for SC, and that does play in getting my money value out of it, but only a small part.

Since the time that SC began and became huge, I have seen a better resurgence of the space combat sim genre, with more and more good quality or better space sims being released, and I do feel that the developers were inspired to make the games they wanted because seeing so many people taking part in funding SC/ED it gave them the confidence that they could actually make some money from their own little projects.  So my $60 put my voice out there to prove that the space combat sim genre can be profitable and can have more attention to it than before.

Also for me personally, because of my discussions with other people about SQ42/SC and talking about the past when space sims were at their peak, I found out that there is a whole Freespace 2 open source project.  I could not believe I did not know this was going on for a very long time, from my understanding around the mid 2000s.  What a fantastic project that is, and ever since I found about it I have been playing Freespace 1 and 2 and the user made campaigns since that time a lot.

So this is why I already got my money's worth.  Anything else from SC after this is nothing more than the cherry on top.

If you think that your $60 contribution to this Star Citizen project is any sort of "support of the space combat genre", when there are dozens of completed and worthy space combat projects - right now on Steam - then you are precisely the sort of person that the project attracted.

Star Citizen hasn't done anything, let alone doing anything, that hasn't been done before. Like, at all. And it never will.

You have the right to spend your $60 as you see fit, but these comments are laughable - at best. And you're not fooling anyone.

"to show the industry that there is a market for space combat sims"

"So my $60 put my voice out there to prove that the space combat sim genre can be profitable and can have more attention to it than before."

Right now on Steam - there are over 100 space combat games. And most of them were either released before 2012 (Star Citizen crowd-funding), or between 2012-2017.

Your $60 has done NOTHING to support the genre; other than to put it into a once promising project that's turned into a train-wreck.

Unreleased games don't move the genre forward. Released games do.

[dsmart]

Except it isn't trolling at all.  Rather it is giving a different perspective on the situation from 1 backer.

But is this place just supposed to be an echo chamber then?

Moeis are you Serendipity in disguise? Because I remember going through all these same arguments with him over and over. At least you haven't trolled Derek yet, so I suppose not.

Yeah, some of us think he's one of the /r/ds guys, and possibly another Serendipity alt. If that's true, it's only a matter of time. As you know, those guys can't help themselves, nor hide for long.

Regardless, let's not engage in witch hunts. We will continue to monitor carefully. We already identified another Serendipity alt which I just banned.

[Bubba]

I dunno. Moeis is the Master of his own cash, as far as I'm concerned.
Not having invested anything in this mess, I'm inclined to agree that Moeis is the best judge of whether he's gotten his money's worth.
No matter what anybody says, the sheer volume of cash CR has raised has drawn attention to crowdfunding, space games, and multimillion-dollar scams.
What's keeping the number of people supporting SC isn't the product, but the community of like-minded individuals building a social structure around reinforcing certain behavior. That's also how this community works, and every other one. It's just that the "Shitiverse" is a dysfunctional community built around a revenue-extraction model masquerading as a videogame and this part of the "Smart Community" is parasitic on it.

So you can find interesting people and projects in such a group, and a $60 buy-in got him in at the ground floor.
A trope of space games is the capital ship death sequence: sparks fly around the hull, metal groans as the ship slowly spins out of control, then a flash of light, a giant fireball, and spectacularly little debris. Unfortunately, these sequences are almost always canned, leaving the player somehow unsatisfied: they always blow up in the same way, and something gigantic vanishes with nary a speck of junk.

I didn't pay $60, but if I did, I'd consider it money well spent to see something like that play out dynamically. Unfortunately, in this case, it's not an in-game effect, it is the game and the entire international eco-system built to support that game. And right now, the helm ain't responding, there's arcing around the hull, and the we're just looking for the escape pods to start firing.
He got a front-row seat for one of the most fascinating spectacles in the history of gaming.