Star Citizen General BS

[dsmart]

I think it would be wiser to keep Serendipity here but without arguing him on all aspects - as that is pointless - rather than kicking him out. That'll only feed the Reddit trolls. They already seem to think that Serendipity is bitchslappin' you around constantly.

OK. I will just issue him a warning then.

[Meowz]

Please explain how it's acheived all of those things.

Explains all but one.

That's not how it works!?!?

I'm afraid it is how it works. 3.0 is the basis for creating your holy grail. To quote one dsmart, pucker up, it's coming.

You keep explaining "proof of concept", but there is a lot more behind an actual "game" than a "proof of concept". Just the inability of the servers to host more than 24 people (and the fact that if all 24 people are together its not really playable) is preventing it from reaching "game" status even if 100% of the content and mechanics were complete, which they are far farm currently.

Next we don't have professions, we don't have capital ships, we don't have the vast majority of what the "game" is described to have. Would you be able to sit down and play this game as is everyday for 4-6 hours for the next 10 years (CR's goal for SC) and remain equally satisfied? You're lying if you say yes, because it isn't a game.

Let me break it down further, lets say I came to you in flip-flips, shorts and a white T saying I would complete a marathon if you gave me  :10bux:. You've never seen me run, you don't know how good of shape I'm in, you don't even know if I have running shoes. I ask you to sponsor me which you do, and you give me way more  :10bux: than I asked for. I promised you that I would "finish" the marathon, not just "start it", I also told you I would run it in about "x" amount of time.

So later I show up in high tech running gear with a headset and say I am ready to go, but I tell you its going to take me time to get my endurance up. You see  me stretch, and mess with my high tech gadgets that I didn't really need to run the marathon (heart rate monitor, fancy waterbottle, oakley sunglasses, fitbit with gps, top of the line shoes, etc...) and I say, "Rest assured I can run!" and then I run a whole 20ft for you. Ok so now you know it is possible for me to run (the modules) great, but showing you I can run 20ft doesn't mean I can run a marathon. You take me at my word however and give me some  :10bux:.

So now I tell you I am ready to run the marathon and when the gun goes off I quickly sprint 20ft then slow down to a very leisurely jog. You start to get worried, but I tell you to "Relax I always slow down, but the more ground I cover the faster I get!" You think "Sure, I mean no one can sprint a marathon so that seems reasonable." While the marathon doesn't have a time limit I did tell you I was going to finish it in "x" amount of time. Now I am not even 20% done and that time is coming up so you are getting worried. I tell you to "Relax, I become lightning fast later on, but it is going to take me a bit longer than I thought." You sigh an "ok" and let me go on.

Well now its well past the "x" time you gave me and ask whats going on. I tell you "Its harder than it looks, BUT LOOK AT ALL THE PROGRESS I'VE MADE!" Yeah true, but then you think of how much I STILL HAVE TO RUN to even make it to the finish line. Now you are getting frustrated because you sponsored me thinking I was a good runner, and so far I've been barely jogging. I've shown you nothing faster than my slow jog during the marathon except for that 20ft I sprinted while asking for money.

You are seriously starting to doubt if I can even finish the marathon, but I keep telling you otherwise. Then the marathon event planner comes up to you and says, "hey if he doesn't finish it soon you are going to have to pay dues again just to keep the event staff here." Time isn't up yet, but all you see is me leisurely jogging. I have used up 3/4 of the race time without having finished 1/4 of the distance. Every time I mention it to you I say "BUT LOOK HOW FAR I'VE RAN!!"

Its not the distance that I've ran that worries you, its the length I have left to run while running at my current pace. All the while having to pay the event staff to stay here. Your wallet is getting lighter and lighter while I'm leisurely jogging seemingly wasting your money and time being here waiting for me to finish. You know I can't make the time I told you I would finish it in, now you are worried if I can even finish the marathon at all.

[Motto]

It's like they are trying to build the tv series "The Expanse". You can go into a ship and fly it through space. You can dock a space station and wander around. You can go to an unknown area and fight other people etc. It's like all of Star Trek Deep Space Nine ported to a single game.

But the main thing is that they have to build it to a fully functional online (semi-MMO) game. If, and that's still a very very big if (actually it isn't), they manage to get all those DS9 components working into a decent gamebuild they're still not there. Because they still need to expand that gamebuild into the fully massive build for the whole world. And that is what never ever is going to work.

The thing is, at what point do you declare that CIG has done what couldn't be done? Is it when they manage to lauch a tiny little mini-rocket that fits in your hand and shoot it upwards for a couple of feet, or is it when they have have a fleet of working rockets like NASA and ESA have, that actually can deliver tons of payload into space? I wouldn't start partying yet with the little handsized rocket.

Most importantly, they keep on bragging about the paint they use and the stickers they put on the side. They also make beautiful clips where they show how they mix the paint and how they place the stickers on the side. They forget to mention that everytime they try to launch a rocket, they need to throw it in the air by hand beacuse the engine still won't fire up and after they've thrown it into the air, it usually explodes.

Still, they have pretty pictures of new labels that could go on the side. If you buy one, you might see it someday on a rocket. They promise!

[Serendipity]

I really don't need silly analogies of the Star Citizen project. I understand the game isn't finished and I understand you don't think it can be. I disagree. In my opinion, 3.0 is a large step in the right direction, not just for planetary landings but the rest of the large list of technology and systems finished and coming online with its release making fleshing the game out possible. For me, as a gamer, it's exciting.

It doesn't matter if CIG have done anything new or not. Is it fun? That's all that matters. Right now fun is in short supply. As the mechanics get added to the huge, contiguous system map I reckon lots of people will find fun to be had.

I'd like to ask what the problem is with whales funding the project too please. What is bad about funding coming in from any source? Isn't it kind of brilliant that they've marketed the game as pc melting, super fidelity, push your PC to the limits because the people with money to burn are EXACTLY the people who enjoy building monster rigs and showing off the latest tech on them. Money to spend on pc components, money to spend on JPEGs. It's really very, very clever.

[Motto]

The big problem with this project is that they are not being honest. For one, they promised full financial disclosure. So far, that is nowhere to be seen. I wonder how many backers would appreciate Chris paying himself a salary of 500k per year and Sandi and Erin 250K per year. Maybe a lot, maybe not so many. Maybe they don't pay themselves that much, but, we don't know. There is no financial accountability for this project but it was promised when accepting the backers money. So, that's one. If you ask a crowd for funding, you answer to that crowd. It's not "hey, why dontcha gimme some money and thanx!" unless you explicity say so before accepting that money.

More importantly, they are lying to backers. There not telling the truth. Probably because of moneyproblems, but maybe for other reason(s) too.

If you are operating under an open environment, you say "hey guys, we've decided to move to Lumberyard (because of...) so in the next weeks, you might see that. Don't try to sneak it in. And when caught, don't lie further by saying "oh, it took 2 engineers not even half a morning to do so". Don't sell ships this week with no mention of delays, mention delays the next week, then sell ships with no mention of delays, stop the sale and mention delays etc. Don't keep on changing the date with 2 weeks at a time when you know it's gonna be months. Just be honest.

But that is the problem. The moment Chris starts telling the truth, the project is dead. Imagine Chris going up at Games Com and saying "Hey guys, listen up. It seems building this game is way more complicated than I ever could forsee, so here's the thing.... don't expect a new alpha release for at least a year. It's just not going to happen. Besides that, we're out of money, so if you want us to continue building this game, you all need to spend at least € 100,- every month. Yeah, I know I said we'd do it in 3 years and at 65m everything was fully funded and so, but, uh, yeah - handwaving starts - I fucked that up. Sorry."

If CIG had the capabilities to build this game, there should have been more progress by now. If there are not having difficulties, why isn't there are simple core that everyone can play that they extend with every release? Remember, this is still an Alpha build. Why the fuck do you need to polish? We're not at the MVP or something. You build the core, the networking, the engine. When that is working, you add posters on the wall in the sleepingquarters. You don't start with making the poster in the sleepingquarters and you definately don't keep on enhancing that poster when you can't leave the sleepingquarters because everything after the door isn't programmed yet.

If CIG had enough funding, they should have stopped the sales. Since they can't deliver what they promised, don't ask for more money if you have enough. Build and deliver what you agreed upon and then start asking for money again.

For now, CIG appears to be a company that sells stuff, but hardly delivers. And if they make a statement about delivering, they brake it. First the dates, and finally with what they deliver.

Backers started to ask for schedules and estimates because there wasn't any real progress. The progress made only sucked big time. When Chris couldn't contain that any longer, he started to lie to keep the backers at ease. At Games Com, if he truthfully had said the next build is probably a year away, CIG would have been done by now. And back then, he knew he was lying straight through his teeth. But he had no choice, being honest would have killed the game.

Remember Derek saying for some time now that they can't build a decent 3.0 build that will be ready to put out there and that they will keep on delaying it and delaying it? Are you willing to state here that Derek was right? That in fact CIG has been delaying and delaying and delaying the 3.0 build. Never mind the reason(s) for it, Derek predicted 3.0 not being read for release any time soon despite the schedules. Was he right?

[dsmart]

I understand the game isn't finished and I understand you don't think it can be. I disagree. In my opinion, 3.0 is a large step in the right direction, not just for planetary landings but the rest of the large list of technology and systems finished and coming online with its release making fleshing the game out possible. For me, as a gamer, it's exciting.

It doesn't matter if CIG have done anything new or not. Is it fun? That's all that matters. Right now fun is in short supply. As the mechanics get added to the huge, contiguous system map I reckon lots of people will find fun to be had.

I don't believe anyone is disputing any of the above. I know I'm not. They're all opinions, and both sides, even those in the middle, have their own opinions on all of that.

The issue is that CIG is routinely and consistently LYING to backers about the TRUE state of the project. If they were telling the truth, aside from the alarm that it would cause, there is a very good chance that even their most hardcore supporters would likely have bailed (as so many already have) by now.

Imagine what would happen if Chris came out and said that the game, as pitched, won't be out until around 2021, which is what I've said sources who have access to the internal schedule, have told me.

And it is the above behavior is why publishers/distributors have milestones which have payments and schedules attached. You don't deliver, you don't get paid. You change the design without publisher (the producer) approval, you run into issues with payment if you have to justify those changes.

So what Chris has done, is basically what he NEVER could do with a publisher. And backers who think they're publishers, are fucking morons because publishers have COMPLETE CONTROL over the project, the schedule, the direction, and the money. The only control backers have is to the money. And even so, if they believed that CIG had enough cash - as they claimed - to finish the project, there would be no need to keep raising money.

All of the above is why the game is almost 3 years late and $91M+ over budget after raising $65M to build the increased scope. There is no disputing these facts. A publisher would have terminated the project the minute it was into $35M and still in pre-Alpha. They would NEVER have allowed the game to blow through $65M, let alone $155M while still in pre-Alpha. Not in a million years.

I'd like to ask what the problem is with whales funding the project too please. What is bad about funding coming in from any source? Isn't it kind of brilliant that they've marketed the game as pc melting, super fidelity, push your PC to the limits because the people with money to burn are EXACTLY the people who enjoy building monster rigs and showing off the latest tech on them. Money to spend on pc components, money to spend on JPEGs. It's really very, very clever.

You're delusional if you think those are the reasons why people backed the project. One look at all the complaints about the game's performance issues is enough evidence that you're wrong.

And nobody is telling people how to spend their money. This isn't, and never was, about that. Obviously the average 2K backers, out of around 600K confirmed backers, still giving them money, are doing so for their own reasons. And we don't care why.

This whole discourse has NOTHING to do with now people choose to spend their money. If you think that's what this is about, clearly you're ignorant, not paying attention, or just don't care about the bigger picture at play.

[dsmart]

Remember Derek saying for some time now that they can't build a decent 3.0 build that will be ready to put out there and that they will keep on delaying it and delaying it? Are you willing to state here that Derek was right? That in fact CIG have been delaying and delaying and delaying the 3.0 build. Never mind the reason(s) for it, Derek predicted 3.0 not being read for release any time soon despite the schedules. Was he right?

Indeed. And I've said this since Dec 2016 when I wrote that SEVERAL sources claimed that the 3.0 which Chris had pitched as coming Dec 2016, simply did NOT exist.

Let's ignore the "promises vs goal" bullshit semantics those guys are using to defend what he said, the FACT is that, now, EIGHT months later, 3.0 is NOWHERE near ready. So what led Chris to believe - in Aug 19 2016 - that 3.0 was anywhere near ready to release +4 months later? How is it that, we're back at GamesCom and ONE YEAR later, that very same 3.0 is incomplete and nowhere release?

FF to 23:35

[Motto]

The issue is that CIG is routinely and consistently LYING to backers about the TRUE state of the project. If they were telling the truth, aside from the alarm that it would cause, there is a very good chance that even their most hardcore supporters would likely have bailed (as so many already have) by now.

And the thing is, they can't stop asking for more money. If they had enough, they wouldn't ask anymore by now. Because when you keep asking for money without delivering, you know that's gonna bite you in the ass someday. Why take that chance if you don't need to? Take a couple of extra millions, okay, but more than doubling it (assuming the funding tracker is (mostly) correct)? You only do that because you need the money. But by admitting you need the money, you'll kill all your funding at once. So, nothing to do but to keep on lying to your backers and hoping and praying that at some point in time you get so far that you don't have legal problems to worry about. But even with unlimited funding, that's not going to happen. CIG is on a road to nowhere, and keeps on buying fuel with other peoples money.

[Serendipity]

Where did those pie charts go? They were interesting.

[Serendipity]

Oh. I see. They didn't support the '2k whales propping up the funding' narrative did they?

Far too many of over 7k responses said they would either buy more ships or maybe buy more ships.
Way more than half of responders don't care about the number of sales or want more of them, again, destroying the 'backers up in arms' or 'tired of endless sales' narratives.

Facts hurting the FUD yet again.

Thanks for posting them Derek, very useful information.

[Motto]

I don't know why Derek removed the charts, but the poll itself is here and all the results are here. So you can make your own charts. That the responses do not represent the whole of the SC community goes without saying.

Still, it clearly shows that there still are a number of utterly stupid people who don't (want to) realise that they're only wasting their money. Wasting as in, they are not going to get a working game for all the money they're spending. I really am worried about what some of those huge spenders might do after CIG collapses and their thousands and thousands of dollars are gone.

On the other hand, if somebody at this moment still buys stuff from CIG, maybe they deserve it. If you clearly don't want to listen, you just have to feel.

What is has to do with FUD, I don't know. I don't have any Fear or Uncertainty that Star Citizen is a Disaster.

[Darklegend1]

Let's ignore the "promises vs goal" bullshit semantics those guys are using to defend what he said, the FACT is that, now, EIGHT months later, 3.0 is NOWHERE near ready. So what led Chris to believe - in Aug 19 2016 - that 3.0 was anywhere near ready to release +4 months later? How is it that, we're back at GamesCom and ONE YEAR later, that very same 3.0 is incomplete and nowhere release?

[/quote]
They are spinning the lie that scope of 3.0 has increased substantially before planetary landings were limited to predetermined landing locations through cutscenes and now they have legendary landings anywhere you want on the planets moons.. :psyduck: .

Chris himself one year ago showed a landing where he said you can land anywhere on the planet then he showed landing in which there was flora as well So i dont know how the moron backers think but it seems to me the scope has decreased.

But then again if they want to get ripped and open their wallets to this con again then who are we to stop them. let them get fucked up over again. Chris roberts has struck gold here whatever he does or does not the money flow is not stopping so he is better to stretch this as long as possible then to actually deliver mvp. 

I look back and see myself being blind to all these facts and thought the same way the faithful backers are like now but i took some time to come to my senses and so do they, it only depends how long the other backers take.

[Motto]

That wasn't my quote  :smuggo: But never mind, I agree with Derek's answer  :D

I'm still awaiting an answer from Serendipity though, about Derek being right on the 3.0 delays.

Now, from the latest schedule delay, how about this masterpiece of text. All hail the wordartists  :woop:

BUG PROCESS
As we are approaching the end of our larger feature work, now we can start to properly review the current gameplay experience with all our directors involved. These reviews identify areas where some more polish is required to deliver a better gameplay experience. As we have done with our previous releases, we’re adding this section to outline the higher ticket items that we feel need some more work before we are comfortable releasing a build to our backers. You will also find an overview of bugs/tasks that have been fixed over the past week, along with a bug burndown chart taken from our tracking software to help illustrate this fix rate a little better.

USER EXPERIENCE POLISH PASS :
Improvement of our overall framerate
We have decided to spend time increasing performance on the client and server side.

Player Count & General Stability
Currently, performance and stability drop sharply once the active players in a server reach 12-15 players.

Cockpit Experience
The Cockpit Experience sprint team is focused on improving the overall player experience in the cockpit through adjustments to cockpit geo, character placement, g-force/hit reactions, VFX, Audio, UI, and code support for things like camera shaking and hooking into ship health systems to display proper damage.

Space Landscaping
We are working on some extra Graphics code for the GPU particle system to support the creation of new VFX to implement space dust at points around Stanton. This will continue to be iterated on to create some more elaborate assets.

Basic Ship Security
With the gameplay we’re adding in to 3.0.0, we’re conscious that there may be some other players that would love to kill you and take your ship. To help prevent this, we wanted to implement some basic security that will allow you to lock the ship, so only you have the ability to pass freely through its doors.

Rotating and Orbiting Planets
We are very keen to make the Stanton map feel more organic as a real environment and having the planets rotate and orbit will really help with this.
This will also introduce a proper day/night cycle when you’re on a planet surface which in turn opens up further gameplay possibilities.

Player Interaction System – User Experience Improvements
We’re want to give players the ability to more intuitively interact with items and objects within the game, but also find ways to indicate to the player what type of interaction they would be performing (pick up, start conversation, push button, etc).

Race Tracks on Planets
To give our planetary environments extra points of interest, and also an excuse to drive ground-based vehicles around at high speed, we thought the best way to do this was to build some rudimentary race tracks on the planets that would have been previously used by the research teams as a way to blow off steam and have fun.

Yes, they are almost there for a stable release. It's seems they really, really know where the priorities should be after all those years of delaying the baisc game with core components  :doh:

[Darklegend1]

That wasn't my quote  :smuggo: But never mind, I agree with Derek's answer  :D

ahh sorry man my bad!!

[Serendipity]

 

I don't know why Derek removed the charts

I told you. It's because they don't support his narrative. If half of 7k backers are willing to spend more money on ships, in itself more than 2k, then how many of 1.8 million forum accounts are willing to spend more money on ships?

...they are not going to get a working game...

Holy confirmation bias Batman! You don't know that.

   What is has to do with FUD, I don't know. I don't have any Fear or Uncertainty that Star Citizen is a Disaster.

Yes you do. Pretending there's only 2k people spending money now is an attempt at making others nervous about spending their money. The project isn't a disaster. It's taking time but that doesn't mean it's disastrous.

  I'm still awaiting an answer from Serendipity though, about Derek being right on the 3.0 delays. 

Derek might have sources within CIG, I don't know, but asking how someone managed to predict that CIG, known for missing their estimated release dates, would miss an estimated release date isn't exactly Nobel prize level thinking is it? Especially with something as technologically difficult as 3.0 and knowing the caveats from the schedule report that often get completely ignored around here. It's almost like you lot deliberately forget they're there for some reason...

This is an interesting Reddit thread talking about Derek's sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/6roc1t/a_user_on_gamestar_reveals_that_derek_does_not/

Makes you think huh?

   I look back and see myself being blind to all these facts and thought the same way the faithful backers are like now but i took some time to come to my senses

Interesting. I would say it took you some time to realise you can't build a game development company from nothing and create a groundbreaking video game whilst massively increasing the scope of said video game in a few short years and were caught up in a FUD campaign which is falling apart with every month CIG stay in business and with every update on development progress. But that's just me.

You'd say I'm gulible and stupid for believing the hype. I'd say you're gullible and stupid for believing Derek's lies hyperbole.

Time will tell gentlemen. We can argue as much as we like. It don't mean poop. Only CIG can prove anyone right or wrong and only in time. Can't wait to find out who's right.