Star Citizen General BS

[GaryII]

You want the world right now, which is fine, that's up to you. It's just unrealistic.

 When "right now" ends?! After 10 years ?!
 
 Current 5 years are quite long time period for "right now" ?! 

 Its about time to deliver don't you think ?!

 I did not asked to deliver the game in 2013 instantly when I backed it...

[StanTheMan]

"Evil publishers" release full games in 5 years, SC is only in Pre-alfa state after 5 years...
 This is direct result of lack of any planning, feature creep, neverending refactoring and "polishing" (in the end everything is unpolished  anyway :P), focusing on jpg sales...

It goes beyond that. Somewhere along the line, Chris had an idea, a vision. He saw a kind of game that would combine several popular game-aspects into one. But he had no money to make it and knew for absolutely sure that no big company would dare to take another chance with him. And then came crowdfunding. Or maybe the vision came after crowdfunding, but who cares. Chris saw a window of opportunity and lauched his Kickstarter campaign. And then noticed he struck gold. His vision apparently appealed to a lot of people. However, Kickstarter has limitations and (legal) rules to abide by. That could hold him back in creating something to go with the vision. So, time to leave Kickstarter behind and start colleting the money directly.

And then it went off the rails. The money kept pooring in. With every wild idea, there it would come again. And again. And then Chris lost it. He probably thought that what he had envisioned would be doable. New modern techniques, clouds are everywhere, big publishers already basically doing it for years. How hard could it be? Money will buy everything, right? And boy, how nice it would be to prove everybody wrong and show them after all those years that he truly is the Master of Games. If they just give him the money and leave him be, he will prove it. Once and for all.

As an added bonus, they gave him so much money, he could add some family members to the payroll, and some old friends and put in some features that could help in another area as well. Let's demonstrate Hollywood I got skills at directing videoclips and have raw pure acting talent available at a snap with my fingertips. And still, every fart was a brilliant sound never heard before. Here's more money, do fart along!

So, he lost it. He started acting the big man who would show the world he could compete with the big companies. Opening multiple studios, going international, expanding his imperium. Because, I've laid down my vision, how hard can it be? As long as everybody does what I tell them to do, it'll turn out to be a huge success. Maybe a big company will buy RSI and then we'll be on our way to Hollywood.

And then it turned out to be really really hard to translate the dream into an actual working product. Having no clue whatsoever about, well, basically everything, it went all bad really quick. The money that should have lasted (them) for years went down the drain. Fast. Whoops. Oh no, Holy Fuck! Quick, let's keep everybody happy by sharing even more of my dreams and by jolly, if they are willing to pay for it, even better. Hell, we need them to because were having expenses we can't pay for long if we don't have a regular steady monthly incomeflow. So, draw pictures! Sell them. Doesn't matter if they can or will be converted to a actual useable item in the game (what game, hahahahaha, omg he's choking on it, somebody bring Chris some water) or just be a nice jpeg forever and ever, as long as it generates money.

Oh, now everything is falling apart. There's no way in hell we can actually build this game. We've been hiding it for years with small little things that need to be polished but the core of the game, we can't do it. We have the seats, the windows, some nice chrome parts and the little cupholder and you actually can buy coffee, but we can't build an engine. We started not with a normal V6 or V8, no we wanted to make a V12 but with Wankel technique. Never been done before. With reason, as it seems. And just to add some difficulty, we switched from gas to diesel, 'cause, you know, reasons, it all went so smoothly and shit and stuff. Now stop asking us when you can actually drive the car. It'll be finished when it's finished. However, those shiny wheelcaps that we draw? Yeah, we're not gonna make them, but we'll redraw them. And then they won't fit the wheels anymore, so we have to redo those too. Oops, now the wheels don't match the wheelcaps anymore. Hmm, let's look at a shop where you can buy hoodornaments first so people can toy with the carbody. A carbody that never will be attached to a working engine so you can actually drive that car around, but who cares.

As long as most of the people don't care if there ever will be a car, just ignore those screaming for a working engine. Fuck 'm. Fuck 'm all. After they give us their money of course. Then fuck 'm over once more. Call me when that isn't working anymore. I'll be on a yacht in Monaco probably, but call me anyway.

Yep.

And then we have the arrogance of thinking his wife Sandi, with sod all marketing experience could market the product.   

What Sandi has done is the equivalent of a conman or an inexperienced junior sales person.  They dont tell the customer what the product actually does and match its features and benefits to the customers needs, they just lie and lie and lie and smile until someone buys those lies and parts with their cash.  Then poof when it comes to delivery they are gone - someone elses problem !    I did my job !   So what if I told them it could do x or y ...

[StanTheMan]

2.6 isn't that bad. It's empty and small compared to what's on the way but it works. As  a test bed and proof of concept it's fine.

See after all your comment and analysis this is where we get to..

"what's on the way" 

You are not CIG, CR or in any way in a position to KNOW what is on the way versus what you have been sold by the people MAKING THE MONEY....yet you are confident enough to claim it is "on the way"

You have a faith based position you have convinced yourself is based on knowledge.

[Motto]

The only argument against this line of reasoning is that they're still in business so the funding tracker must be on the right lines otherwise how could they stay afloat all this time with an ever increasing number of employees?

Fact is, first 2 years overheads were tiny compared to today but funding was almost the same. Well over 50 million in two years, one of which they had less than 20 employees and a single office. They had tonnes of cash in reserve. Tiny Z used to be a hedge fund manager which means, I guess, he knows how to invest large chunks of cash.

Repeatedly saying they're about to run out of cash...for the last 2 years, becomes sillier and sillier as they continue to stay in business for longer and longer. They can have sales. They will deliver more game play. Money keeps coming in.

Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?

Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015

"THE BEGINNING OF THE END

The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."

No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?

Chris might have pulled some money elsewhere. Investors, bankloans, who knows? The thing is, if you have enough money, you don't need more, but you'll probably want more. Now, if you have enough money (the 65m for the original promises), why would you keep on asking for more money for a product you can't deliver? That behaviour will only get you more and more upset, angry, complaining customers. I now have 10 angry people because I didn't deliver their car. Let's sell more cars. Yeah, brilliant strategy  :doh:

Tiny Z might have been a terrible hedge fund manager. The fact that someone claims to be/has been XYZ, doesn't mean they are/were good at it (Hi Chris, Hi Sandi  )

I don't remember Derek claiming an exact time and date that CIG would collapse. He has been going on about this project being FUBAR for quite some time now, that is true. That doesn't mean he is wrong. With everything I see, I support his views. CIG has lasted longer than he anticipated yes, because they managed to get their hands on more money than expected. But not because they are a top-notch organisation with the best management layer ever and with financial skills that are on par with the best from the best at Wall Street.

But the desparate need for money - that has no bearing whatsoever on the survival of the game (as by own admission from Chris) - is at the least very strange. I see no signs of a healthy company in their current behaviour. I see a company in distress. And with no clear way out, because admitting they have money problems will automatically be the end of them too.

[Serendipity]

2.6 isn't that bad. It's empty and small compared to what's on the way but it works. As  a test bed and proof of concept it's fine.

See after all your comment and analysis this is where we get to..

"what's on the way" 

You are not CIG, CR or in any way in a position to KNOW what is on the way versus what you have been sold by the people MAKING THE MONEY....yet you are confident enough to claim it is "on the way"

You have a faith based position you have convinced yourself is based on knowledge.

I see the progress in AtV every week . It's not faith it exists. It's faith I'll be able to play it at some point. I had faith I'd be able to play AC. I had faith I'd be able to play 2.0. I had faith I'd be able to play Star Marine. I have faith I'll be able to play 3.0.

Are you suggesting we won't get to play a build called 3.0 at some point? I think we will. I think it's damn near certain we will.

  I don't remember Derek claiming a exact time and date that CIG would collapse. He has been going on about this project being FUBAR for quite some time now, that is true. That doesn't mean he is wrong. 

Maybe you have a very selective memory or maybe you can't read very well, either way Derek predicted 60 to 90 days, I posted a picture earlier in the thread, and he said they weren't a going concern nearly 2 years ago. That's a date range and him being incredibly wrong.

A company that is no longer a going concern doesn't stay in business for 2 years and counting!

Please at least try to read what I write if you're going to argue with me.

Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.

I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.

[dsmart]

So the choice as you and Derek see it was to either continue adding stretch goals and adding to feature creep/bloat or pocket the extra themselves?

I didn't say that. The thing is, they didn't stop the funding. If they had continued to accept pledges for a basic ship, that's one. But they didn't. Without anything to show for on their original promises, they kept on adding stuff to buy and selling more jpegs and more and more and more. Because they needed the money. Not to make it an even better game, but to keep afloat. Because the idea was to have a game by 2014 and from 2014 on, make money on exploiting the game and expanding the game in bits. But, no game in 2014. Whoops. Now what? We need to finish the game but where's the money to pay for that? What we had is gone now. Well, get extra money. Sell more stuff, sell other stuff. Hell, sell your mother for all I care, but get the money!

The thing is, we don't know how much money CIG has collected over the years. However, it's safe to say that their funding tracker is bogus. And we don't know how much CIG has spend over the years. However, it's safe to say it'll be much.

Is it likely that they have spend most if not all of their money by now and need to turn some drastic tricks to make it any further. Yes, I think that is likely. Highly likely.

Precisely. And this is where part of the "scam" and "Ponzi scheme" analogies come from.

They raised $65M to build a game within a specific time. Then couldn't. So guess what? It took longer, and that means needing more money. How do you raise that? By selling "futures" in the form of game assets which may or may not ever end up in the game. And what happens when people want refunds, and you don't have money to refund them? You use the new money to refund the old.

If the games were already released as final - regardless of how they turned out - and they were still raising money via selling DLC, that's completely different thing entirely. This is the part that most of these defenders don't seem to be able to reconcile in their brains.

[Serendipity]

Any evidence of them having no money?

That isn't supposition, heresay, guesswork or made up?

[dsmart]

PLEASE list ALL the innovative tech in Star Citizen, which nobody has done before, so we can discuss them fully. It should be very interesting.

Ok. I'm not going to talk about technology as I don't know much about that but I can talk about the game and why it's so enticing. What makes it potentially so special. The features planned that, combined, nobody has done before.

Where is that game, 6 years and $155M later?

Multiplayer, realistic (enough) flight/space simulator mechanics with 6DoF, inertia, momentum etc where you are a pilot in a ship or vehicle able to get out of the seat and engage in FPS play in single, seamless maps, millions of km in size, fully traversable without loading screens of any kind including landing anywhere on PG planetary bodies of near full scale which can be fully explored with hand crafted POIs including both PVE and PVP game elements, deep skill based game mechanics for mining/repair etc which involves more than simply holding down a button, player influenced economy with real-time supply and demand market pressures all in an engine as beautiful as cryengine.

So what you are saying is that the combination of all the above, is what makes it great and innovative? Are you high? Like right now?

Lets see...

01) Multiplayer

All online games need this.

In SC it's currently rubbish; and everyone knows this

02) realistic (enough) flight/space simulator mechanics with 6DoF, inertia, momentum etc

LOL!! not even close

I should know. I have written several flight dynamics engines over a 30 year period. Heck, this is one from an engine that was first written back in 1992, and streamlined over the years.

03) where you are a pilot in a ship or vehicle able to get out of the seat and engage in FPS play

That's already in COD:IW, ME:A, Angels Fall First, and several other games. You should go check them out. There's a bunch of them on Steam.

The only "novelty" in SC regarding this, and which has NO gameplay value, is the starting of the game in fps mode and entering a ship in that mode (in the PU only). And since CryEngine is an fps engine first and foremost, this was a no-brainer.

As much as I hate to bring this up, LoD is also takes place purely in fps mode, and does all the same things in certain areas. e.g. in a space station, you are warped to the ship in the external docking bay. On the planet, you walk up to it and enter it - like in all fps games which feature vehicle use. Even passengers can enter the back of shuttles, and remain in fps mode during the entire transit.

04) in single, seamless maps, millions of km in size, fully traversable without loading screens of any kind

Sorry, but that's not how that works. It's not a contiguous or seamless "map" or there won't be enough memory to load it. It's "demand loaded" based on your position in the "map". There are loading screens, but they are transparently handled like they are in many games such as Elite Dangerous, Infinity Battlespace, Dual Universe etc.

My legacy Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games don't have the concept of "maps" or "levels" as it's all data driven. Even so, the entire world is linked via jump anamalies.

05) including landing anywhere on PG planetary bodies of near full scale

NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.

06) which can be fully explored

NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.

07) with hand crafted POIs

NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.

08) including both PVE and PVP game elements

Arena Commander, Star Marine, PU, all have PvP elements

And some of the modules have PvE elements in the form repetitive missions and NPC swarms.

All other promised PvE and PvP elements are NYI

09) deep skill based game mechanics for mining/repair etc which involves more than simply holding down a button

NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.

10) player influenced economy with real-time supply and demand market pressures

NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.

11) all in an engine as beautiful as cryengine.

Yes. That's the only plausible check mark thus far

So the conclusion is that, it's all based on promises, and so far, NONE of the key "elements" (aka USP) which you claim make Star Citizen special and innovative, DO NOT EXIST.

NMS, CoD, Battlecrusier, LoD, Battlescape infinity, Dual Universe, Elite Dangerous, Angels fall first and any other game you can mention simply can't claim all of that.

See above. And those games were never claiming to do anything like Star Citizen is attempting to do. They are all different types of games, with the only common elements being space, and in some of them, the addition of planets.

For what it's worth I've played LoD, own Angels fall first and I'm a kickstarter backer for Dual Universe and Battlescape and I'm looking forward to seeing them become cool games in time but they don't have the scope or appeal of SC.

That's the problem. You continue to make false equivalent comparisons which have no basis in this discussion. We're discussing Star Citizen and what is PROMISES to be. ALL the games above, by smaller indie teams which didn't have access to $155M, are farther along than Star Citizen, and with FAR LESS resources at their disposal.

Question back at you. Why do you think the game's fundraising has destroyed all previous records for crowd funding if it isn't the fact it's trying to be something new and special?

It's got NOTHING to do with "trying to be something new and special". That's all in your heads. This is evidenced by the fact that most of the funding comes from the existing install base. If new backers, or even 1% of all the backers were buying everything CIG was selling, they would have raised over a $1B by now. Unlike you guys, there are people who actually keep track of this stuff, and don't just pull numbers out of thin air. In fact, go look at the sales of the Nox and Cyclone for even more recent evidence of this fact.

Also ICO partners who track crowd-funding for games, just released their latest report this past Monday.

Video games declining on Kickstarter - ICO

[Serendipity]

Dude, I said none on their own are special but it's the combination of it all. I said it's their plans for it all and not available right now. Do you even read before replying? No game is doing it all. None of them.

I've seen your attempts at physics in flight. LoD is a disgrace in this regard. I'll link a video if you like but I think we both know it's laughable.

   It's not a contiguous or seamless "map" or there won't be enough memory to load it.

Yes it is. How much memory does empty space take up? You  really are displaying your ignorance here.

[Motto]

Maybe you have a very selective memory or maybe you can't read very well, either way Derek predicted 60 to 90 days, I posted a picture earlier in the thread, and he said they weren't a going concern nearly 2 years ago. That's a date range and him being incredibly wrong.

A company that is no longer a going concern doesn't stay in business for 2 years and counting!

Please at least try to read what I write if you're going to argue with me.

Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.

I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.

Derek explained that 60 to 90 days was an exaggeration. He showed the whole timeline. But okay, let's take that literally. So, yes he was wrong there. At the moment, CIG is still alive. How they managed to do so, nobody knows. It's not by delivering what they promised, that's for sure.

Now the question is, for how long can they stay alive? I think it won't be for long now. They have lied too long to their backers now. They can't produce a decent game. Alpha 3.0 will be a very disappointing gameplay, if they dare to release it at all.

It is safe to say that Derek has been right though.

- It's now August 2017. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.
- If the funding chart is correct, CIG has now raised 155m. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.

Now, will CIG be able to make the game - as pitched - even if they had unlimited funding? No, it's just not doable at the moment. Maybe in 10 or 20 years.
Does CIG have enough funding to continue for at least delivering at the bare minimum, a decent working basic game? No, probably not.
Can CIG keep on generating money to keep afloat in the same way they have done for the last couple of years? No, probably not.

Is Star Citizen as game totally FUBAR? Well, yes. It's a miracle that they lasted until now. They need to pull another couple of miracles now with the 3.0 build, Games Com and Shitizencon. Let's see if they manage that...

[dsmart]

Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?

First of all, my sources have been right about more things related to this project, than Roberts' has been truthful about it.

Second, if the CIG funding chart, at $155M is to be believed, coupled with what we DON'T know about investor money and loans, why is $285M (the cited number), which is barely $130M higher, so far fetched? Even if it's not as high as $285K, what gives you reason to believe that $155M is accurate, and the only money they have thus far received on the project?

https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/885144183945789442

Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015

"THE BEGINNING OF THE END

The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."

No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?

Didn't we go through this already?

And a "going concern" has NOTHING to do with going bankrupt. Again, I have to ask you to look up on things and understand them, before you engage in discussions about those things.

[Serendipity]

That's a lot of opinion and guesswork. Fact is they're not bankrupt. Fact is they're still developing. Fact is you have no idea how money they've spent or have left. Fact is we have to wait and see.

[Serendipity]

Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?

First of all, my sources have been right about more things related to this project, than Roberts' has been truthful about it.

Second, if the CIG funding chart, at $155M is to be believed, coupled with what we DON'T know about investor money and loans, why is $285M (the cited number), which is barely $130M higher, so far fetched? Even if it's not as high as $285K, what gives you reason to believe that $155M is accurate, and the only money they have thus far received on the project?

https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/885144183945789442

Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015

"THE BEGINNING OF THE END

The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."

No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?

Didn't we go through this already?

And a "going concern" has NOTHING to do with going bankrupt. Again, I have to ask you to look up on things and understand them, before you engage in discussions about those things.

I did and I found this.

What does 'Going Concern' mean
Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue to operate indefinitely until a company provides evidence to the contrary, and this term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s.



Read more: Going Concern http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp#ixzz4oc7Twmsl
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

In fact I clicked the link you provided in the blog in question, which said the same thing.

[dsmart]

Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.

Yeah because somehow I have so much to gain from a pointless exercise. And it wasn't because CIG started this shit because I wrote a blog, and YOU guys started engaging in targeted harassment, that got us where we are today.

And somehow, to those of you who keep parroting this rubbish about "attacking a competitor", we can't talk about competitors because for some reason, Microsoft and Google, making commercials against Apple, is also totally egregious. That's the thing with you guys, you all live in an alternate reality.

I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.

Your revisionist history continues to fail.

Interstellar Citizens (July 9th, 2015)

Frankfurt team’s June 2015 engineering report. (July 3rd, 2015)

Engineering

In June, Frankfurt Engineering deployed to the main codebase some major items that were planned for this month. As mentioned in the last monthly report, the Large World (moving the codebase to 64 bit coordinates), Camera Relative (rendering coordinates relative to the camera thus allowing galaxy size rendering without loss of precision), Zone system (the new Star Citizen spatial partitioning scheme, replacing Cryengine Octree) were close to hit the Star Citizen code mainline and have now been deployed, and will find their way into the various Star Citizen game modules soon.

The integration of relevant CryEngine 3.7 SDK parts, combined with our new changes, is being deployed into our codebase as we are writing this.

Frankfurt team’s May 2015 engineering report. (June 5th, 2015)

Engineering

For the month of May, Frankfurt Engineering has been busy on multiple fronts. We made a lot of progress on Large World (moving the codebase to 64 bit coordinates, thus allowing galaxy size (literally) levels to be created and explored in Star Citizen) . The main task being worked on Large World this month was making the rendering Camera Relative: in fact the move to 64 bit required all rendering code to be changed to be relative to the camera and not simply in absolute world coordinates any more.

[dsmart]

Dude, I said none on their own are special but it's the combination of it all. I said it's their plans for it all and not available right now. Do you even read before replying? No game is doing it all. None of them.

I've seen your attempts at physics in flight. LoD is a disgrace in this regard. I'll link a video if you like but I think we both know it's laughable.

Actually, you haven't. Because there are several videos in the channel I provided which show perfectly fine flight dynamics in games released as far back as 2009.

The LoD video you guys keep citing only goes to show the lengths to which you guys would go to falsehoods to support a narrative. To anyone knowing how to play the game, it would have been painfully obvious that the video shows an EXTERNAL VIEW CAMERA which isn't coupled to the aircraft control systems. And that is precisely why it was later disabled in order to prevent people from attempting to "fly" aircraft using it. We had in there for external view testing to see the world rendering, draw distances etc. Even gameplay videos going all the way to 2014, which are on the game's page and YT channel, show the aircraft flight dynamics completely differently.

FYI because LoD uses a different engine, is a different kind of game, isn't focused on aerial/space combat, that's why it doesn't use the same flight dynamics engine as previous games. But you won't understand any of that, since you know nothing about tech. You're just parroting rubbish from Reddit.

This is why, when Goons and others find things in Star Citizen to laugh at, you all get mad. But that's precisely what you guys keep doing with LoD, despite the fact that 1) it usually results in you guys self-owning 2) the game is far more technologically advanced, farther along than Star Citizen, and a massive game built by less than a dozen people.

Yes it is. How much memory does empty space take up? You  really are displaying your ignorance here.

I am not going to grace that with a response because it's clearly above your knowledge (you have already claimed to not know anything about technology), but if you continue to engage in personal attacks, you will be banned. I know it's probably annoying that your narrative has NO traction here, so maybe you should consider staying on Reddit because we don't tolerate that here.

ps: Did you notice the "galaxy sized levels" comment in the May 2015 engineering report from CIG? Sure you did.